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CSMX - Post #24

The structure development blogs exited translation limbo and were released on Thursday. There are two. One about assets and one about sieges. Read them please. These are not the final words they are just the direction that we are headed. Feedback is super important here with the timers and the treatment of assets.

At Rob Kaichin's request I have created a condensed fact sheet about what we currently know about structures. This is not everything that will happen. My goal was to take the common questions that are answered in the dev blog and bring them out into the open with simple questions and trains of thought. This project took a bit to write up and get ready for the public. I've gotten it approved by CCP Nullarbor and CCP Yitterbium who worked with me on fact checking and cleaning up outdated information. I'm super pleased with it. It has had the side effect of opening up some new areas to discuss whole highlighting areas that we still have very little public knowledge of.

How do I feel about structures? I am excited about them. I am also worried because we have so many variables in play. The current vision has many good parts but I feel that there is still a lot of work to be done. The loot dropping, or I should say lack of loot dropping, bugs me a lot. I feel that wormholes take a much harder hit to this. I really, really like getting other peoples stuff. I've been out and about exploring players ideas of what looting means to them and if having a similar compensation in things like minerals and components will satisfy them or not. We (meaning Corbexx and I) are very concerned over the changes listed in these blogs to wormhole space and we are working on continued communication of those points. We want the unique environment of wormhole space to stay the unique environment that it is.

On Wednesday we attempted to have a jump fatigue talk that tried to accomplish to much. I believe that it went poorly and I address my mistakes, failures, anger, and unhappiness later in this post.

The soundboard is here. I use Mike's version which has the recording notice on it. I consider his version to be neutral ground. There are several other recordings up of various quality if you'd like to find them.

CCP Mimic wrote up a summary in the wake.

CCP Larrikin has posted the feedback thread for jump fatigue. In that he has some metrics that were asked for in the original thread and during the discussions. One is on black ops kills and losses. The other is a chunk of capital ship data. While the thread is large and violent it is being read.


Now, let me release my inner Kraken. I'm going to rage out for a moment.

Did I think I had a hand on things? Yes. Did that still make it a smooth experience? No. I was drowning in information and trying to parse it. I can write out the reasons for a few hours. I made mistakes and attempted to create a format that needs a lot more universal agreement of goals and behavior. Did I set this up to bait the developers into a position of being treated poorly? No. Did I want to get questions in front of them so that people could share how jump fatigue had impacted them for good bad bad? Yes. Did I steadily lose control of the session? Yes. I've received dozens of critiques now on what I did wrong and all of the mistakes I have made.

I walked away from the effort of communication perhaps the most bitter that I have been since I started this CSM thing. I'm discouraged that vicious and hateful communication is praised and rewarded. I'm disappointed that my idealized vision of clear question and answer and discussion failed so spectacularly and did not have a chance to take off. I believed people would take the opportunity for what it could give them simply because that is what I would have done in the same situation.  I very much want people to speak up. I've never asked anyone to lie or say they loved what they did not. I cannot speak for and support you if I don't know what you need and want.

I am so angry with myself for not stopping things when they got ugly. I let my very idealistic approach to the CSM make me hope that it would get better. I badly want to give people what they want. I want to build bridges of communication and access. I want players to be heard and CCP to take the time to listen. I actually don't like that I am idealistic but in this, I am. It leaves me shattered and doubting myself and what I am trying to create when I sit down each evening.

I was only focused on my disappointment with myself until people came to me and told me that what happened was okay and expected. I should have accepted that it would be bad. I cannot wrap my mind around this. The goal of my effort was for things to go well. Why else was I doing this? I was supposed to be consoled that there was an agenda to force the issue and create the environment and because it is larger than me and some groups play hard there was nothing I can do.

I don't accept any of it.

Being civilized does not mean kissing up and never entering negative topics. Honest does not mean being a jerk and abandoning any contaminating civility. It is not acceptable to treat people like crap. To excuse it as, "passion for the game" or "people really care" is enabling unacceptable behavior. It is not acceptable to behave that way and it should never be excused as "that's just how player's are." Or even worse, "They are gamers. We cannot expect more of them." I expect better of people. That is not how the player's that inspired me to give two years to promote their wants, hopes, and dreams behave. It is not how the people who have stepped forward to create all the good parts of the community are. I won't let this define everyone. It isn't an unfortunate side effect that we have to live with. Its unacceptable. Its disappointing. Its ripping apart your own things and complaining that they are broken.

I will never accept that is just how things are. naivety. Tilting at windmills. Windless causes. I'm fine with all of that.

/end rage


So, what next? At that moment Thursday night as everything spiraled into a vortex of irreconcilable mess, I wanted to throw my hands up and swear that I'd never do it again. Unfortunately, that isn't an option. We will keep going. Corbexx and I have gotten the next soundboard together. This is another one on structures with CCP Nullarbor. It will be on August 18th, 2015 at 1700 GMT. If you wish to join in sign up. We're going to become very strict on attendance and keeping things civil and productive. If I had to suffer through these mistakes I am damn well going to learn from them and do better in the future.


  1. Thanks for the structure facts sheet, it helps quite a lot!
    Linking it to all m corpmates with questions.

  2. I think that the game is fun for a lot of people because of the "fu", "no fu". In my experience this is a guy thing that women do not have the experience to appreciate. Think a bunch of drunken/stoned frat guys watching Harold and Kumar when you (as an Asian girl (you can pretend)) walk in offering Kimchee Jigae.

    So, I assume you read Gevlon having a melt down. Now you. Come on! Pull it together and instead of raging that these anonymous d***heads are mean and sassy, don't bother with such stupid forums for abuse.

    Read every post, liked it. Hope you come up with a better answer than f it, f them. Jester couldn't.

    My best wishes,

    1. Good God Anonymous, this post was no meltdown. When an author signposts that she’s going to rage for a moment and then draws conclusions from that moment of raging we have the very opposite of a meltdown. Rather we have someone publicly examining their experience and drawing forth conclusions. I took away two things:

      1) Sugar declares there is no excuse for bad behavior. Do you disagree? I don’t.

      2) Next time Sugar’s “going to become very strict on attendance and keeping things civil and productive.” Do you disagree? I don’t.

      Finally, Sugar ain’t Jester. She ain’t Gevlon either. With the exception of playing Eve and being (or once being) active bloggers, they don’t have much in common. Casually lumping the three together does disservice to the entire bunch and most especially Sugar.

    2. Jester was treated poorly by certain factions in the playerbase. He had more than enough reasons to take his ball and walk away.

    3. I don't think being shown up as a hypocrite or being criticised for triggering what was essentially a witch hunt is in any way being treated poorly.

    4. Criticizing the messenger doesn't negate the message. Until Jester's article, I had no idea scam artistry of that extreme nature was occurring, and I'm happy one less practitioner is in the game. Not knowing didn't make what was happening - less bad.

  3. Considering that the Kraken is already out, would you comment on

  4. "I've received dozens of critiques now on what I did wrong and all of the mistakes I have made."

    You tried. They didn't. So fuck 'em.

    Sorry to be so blunt, Sug. But I hope you understand that your value to us as a CSM is that you try to *do* things for the Community, while others sit on the sidelines pissing, moaning, and "critiquing" instead.

    So we were too rude, too immature, for it to work smoothly? That's our problem, not yours. Now you know what shits we are you can factor that in to how you run the next one -- and I hope there will be a "next one".

    This wasn't a failure, it was a first iteration -- and if a first iteration ever goes smoothly then you simply weren't ambitious enough :-)

  5. Sugar, hate to say it but, normal person + internet anonymity = total fuckwad. I wasn't there, and I'm sure you handled things to the best of your ability during what you really didn't expect would be a total shit storm.

    Don't let it get you down and don't let it pull you away from doing something you love. Write it off as a learning experience.

  6. You play a game where sociopathic behaviour is not only encouraged, but glorified. Naturally the game has attracted that segment of the population that revel in expressing their true nature.

    Yet you are shocked and disheartened when symptoms of their sickness now bleed out beyond the forums ingame chat windows? Most evil hateful people will demonstrate their true nature whenever they can be anonymous, or when backed by a large group of same-minded creatures. This was just another example.

    CCP and the CSM wants to avoid this kind of thing? Then attract a different kind of person to the game.

    1. Vince,

      I presume you play Eve (if you don't why in the world are you wasting your time not only reading but commenting on a blog about Eve).

      According to you Eve is a game designed to appeal to psychopaths and since you presumably play Eve we thereby have good evidence you are a psychopath (if you're not a psychopath, why in the world are you spending precious game time with the mentally disordered?).

      So which is it . . .

      1) Vince is a psychopath?

      2) Vince merely enjoys hanging out with psychopaths? (Let's call that 'wimpy psychopathy'.)

      3) Vince's 'You're mostly a bunch of psychopaths' diagnosis is mistaken?

    2. @DireNecessity:

      Or, perhaps, a large segment of the game's demographics are not sociopaths, but play the game based on what it was, not is today. But unfortunately, the sociopaths are in power of many large in-game groups that drive the CSM and their lackey dev's.

      As for me, I made my chunk of cash ingame some time ago, and log on mostly to do solo low sec roams, and buy a plex in Jita once a month. My main gave up serious play a few years ago when high sec industry was destroyed when the dev's caved to the cartels' pressure.

      I do gain a perverse enjoyment from Eve watching it slowly die because CCP does not have the vision and guts to shed the yoke of the null sec cartels driving the game into the ground. If CCP recognized that Eve does not have to be Nullsec Online, and they do indeed have the power to shatter the failed lawyer's and his associates' hold on this game, this game would be flooded with new and returning players.

      So if that perverse enjoyment makes me kin to the goons, and Code, and all the other asshats in the game, so be it.

    3. Can you please soe make some more gross generalizations Vince?

      Like 'the goons' and 'CODE' and 'the population' and 'the CSM'and 'the lackey devs'. All of which you manage to dehumanize and strip of their individuality by throwing them onto one big pile.

      I await with, great trepidation, what heights of demagoguery you will yet aspire to reach.

    4. Whilst there is some tolerance for those wishing to be less civilized. I would point the end result of the Bonus Room was that CCP said no, and banned those involved. The community was given by CCP uncharacteristically an open thread on the forums to debate the issue. Overwhelmingly about 800 individual players rejected the Bonus Room as acceptable game play, whilst only 45 posted repeatedly in its favor. It was this which helped maintain my faith in Eve and CCP.

      The elements you site; such as Goons or CODE have volume promoting their play - but are they are not Eve as a whole.

      I would direct to you CCP Quant's statistics of player base from Fanfest 2015. CCP are well are that a large section of the player-base does not have investment into Meta-Game or its antics. This knowledge would at least play a part in their decision process to prevent exclusion or isolation for the player type they titled "Traditional".

    5. @ Easy Esky: I agree that a minority of the player base are, might as well say it, evil. Is that minority 5%, 10%, or 30%? I don't know. I don't think anyone has a clear handle on that.

      But like diesel oil in drinking water, it only takes a small amount to contaminate the whole thing. And CCP is one of the very few game companies that actively encourages and entices evil people to play this game. How many months ago was the marketing slogan "Be the villian?"

      I believe that it takes 2, 3, even 4 years for a group to gain enough control and influence to make significant changes to any organization's direction. I started playing Eve in 2008. At that point, the cartels' power was a small fraction of what it is today (yes, I am well aware of T20). But along came the goons and voila!, under the ruthless (albeit effective) direction of the failed lawyer, within 3-5 years we had an Eve null sec that is virtually all blue (which is very good for business), and a ton of bored fat sociopaths that decide to target high sec for their jollies (I am talking in-game and out-of-game). And so began the changes to the game that have lead to the present day, where Eve is so toxic that only a tiny fraction of new players continue to play, and many casual high sec players have quit in frustration and despair.

      So yes, while I acknowledge only a minority of Eve players are evil, they are now in such positions of power that they exert far more influence on the game that they ever should have.

      And that is why we now have spikes of just 28K PCU on a Friday night. Not because of the removal of ISOboxer, nor the jump nerf.

      Can CCP pull out of this flat spin? Yes. but it will take the courage to shatter groups like goons and Code (are they not the same group anyway). so no group[ of evil people ever can gain such control again.

      Frankly, I don't think CCP has the vision and guts to do that.

    6. Dinsdale was just one of the more vocal of this group of players. Usually they are the ones asking CCP to find ways to break up big groups so that no one person or group can cause too much influence on the rest of the game. Thing is, people in those big groups are friends, and no in game methods exist to make real friends turn on each other. (Note emphasis on 'real' friends)

      Vince here does sound a lot like Dinsdale though, I can see why you would ask and look forward to him answering. I always found his posts interesting.

    7. Frankly I find the notion that entire groups of people are 'evil' ridiculous. Also that one (or a few) rotten apple(s) spoils which the bunch, like Vince is alluding too, is a logical fallacy.

      I find even the idea of assigning such labels as 'evil' to people based of their behavior in a video game (where that behavior is within the rules of the game) ever so slightly ridiculous.

      For all you know the someone ganking you spends his or her weekends volunteering in a soup kitchen. And is nicest guy ever out in the real world. vOv

      Anyway saying 'all Goons' or 'all CODE members' or 'all X' strips the individual members of their individuality and uniqueness, if you then also assign a bunch of negative attributes to those groups as a whole you're veering very close to the same demagoguery racists and such use to justify their opinions. I think that's more dangerous and morally reprehensible then anything these groups are allegedly guilty off in a *virtual* space.

    8. Vince does indeed = Dinsdale as he explains over on Nosy's Blog:

      Why he's hopping around under a new moniker remains a mystery to me - it's not like the narrative has changed.

  7. There's some excellent advice and wisdom in these comments, Sugar. I get why you are angry at how things turned out but don't be angry with yourself. You were genuine in your objectives for this discussion. Others had an incompatible objective and the intersection of those objectives was not pleasant.

    Lesson learned: The asshole risk factor needs to be mitigated. If that means you can't use the ideal (in your view) format, it is okay because a "safer" format can still be effective at enabling information flow between players and CCP. That's the primary goal, after all. Your dedication to that cause has been remarkable and consistent across your CSM terms.

    I admire you greatly for the work you do and the sincere effort you put into your CSM work. Don't let the bastards grind you down.

  8. As one of the people who stepped up to defend you, all I can say is that it is easy to look back on what happened in the rear-view mirror with rose-tinted glasses. Yes, anyone can say oh you should have done this, that and the other thing when the dust has settled. However, in the moment, you did what you thought was best and your good faith in people was taken advantage of by people who wanted to throw their tantrums where CCP could hear them. The important thing for me is that you've learned from the experience and have better ideas for moving forward. That's all anyone can ask. Also, since I'm sure you haven't heard this enough, I appreciate the time you took to organize it.

    With regards to structures, you heard a bit of my feedback on Twitter already. IMO - making Eve more safe is not a good idea in w-space or anywhere else in the game. POSes are not safe and the POS replacement should not be safe either. If you put your assets into your Citadel, they should be very vulnerable. If you want the advantages, you have to put something on the line and it isn't just the cost of the structure, it's the cost of everything you've chosen to store inside. This serves the dual purpose of giving players a strong incentive to defend their assets.

    With regards to vulnerability windows, I think it's a poor design choice. CCP has listened too much to whiners who want to control the safety of their structures. POSes, as they stand right now, can be attacked any time of day. Citadels, as announced, can only be attacked during certain windows and you won't even know when that is unless you're on grid when it happens. This is a problem for two reasons:

    1. In k-space, you can easily go back and check a Citadel every day, multiple times per day. The system is static and can easily be accessed. In w-space, you can't. You have to dedicate an alt to sit in there for a week to figure out when their vulnerability window is.

    2. Vulnerability windows don't make much sense. I would rather have more control over when your Citadel comes out of reinforcement (so if you're attacked in your non-main TZ you have the opportunity to defend in your strong TZ). People should be able to attack you whenever they want.

    My final issue is with regards to how long the reinforcement period ends. As it stands, reinforcement can easily last for a week or longer. This simply will not work for w-space. A w-space siege (that is contested by the residents) currently can take a full weekend to pull off (Friday through Sunday). It is necessary to have 24/7 control over all of the wormholes leading in and out to have a successful siege take place. Part of the reason we can get this done is because the reinforcement timers are 24-36 hours - not multiple days. Yes, it's boring, but at least you can dedicate one weekend to it and be finished.

    The Citadel system can be manipulated to drag out your reinforcement over many days or even a week. It is not feasible to maintain control over a wormhole system for that long as people will simply not skip work/ school for a whole week to maintain 24/7 hole control, and if you don't maintain hole control then the defender simply can resupply and get pilots back into the system (something that isn't possible if podded out with hole control). This might make more sense in k-space where borders are always constant and you can always find your way back, but it does not work for w-space.

  9. Sugar, I think you do a good job, please keep doing it.
    Also I love this;
    "It is not acceptable to treat people like crap. To excuse it as, "passion for the game" or "people really care" is enabling"
    More of that please!

  10. The sooner this game dies or gets fixed, the better for everyone... So much anger... I can't bear to even log in anymore, all I hear is hate and complaints anymore. I wonder how much longer it can go on to be honest...

    1. Respectfully, I must point out that posts like this have been around since ... well... before the game was actually launched. The beta forums actually had threads predicting imminent doom.

      I'm not saying your or anyone else's frustration isn't justified. I've quit and come back more than once. My point is that throwing your hands in the air and saying "it's the end, I swear!" doesn't really do all that much good.


    2. Respect noted. I've seen those posts for 6 years now, and felt it was just the nature of a competitive mmo at work... But even during the Incarna rage, it felt like most players had some degree of hope though, and now it seems that most basic of things is gone.... and that the present anger is building back up into an even bigger Incarna summer of rage again...

  11. Some of the scm don't even have maps and so the playerbase suffers of this if they try and not be psykopaths like they said.


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