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Stuck in Place

I am struggling with what I believe to be pride.

I've always wanted to be self sufficient in Eve. I did not come into the game expecting to play with anyone else. I was going to make it in the world by myself. I, however, wound up making friends. At the same time, I was determine not to be a liability. I wanted to be an asset. Such was my start and it has led me down several paths and many adventures both pleasant and not.

However, I'm suborn. The other day, while discussing alts, someone left a comment that said they enjoyed reaching new abilities and doing new things. Alts spoiled that feeling. On one hand I can easily see where they are coming from. On the other hand is my life in Eve. I've spent most of my time trying to hang out with people above my skill and knowledge level. I used alts for two reasons. One: I wanted new avatars. Two: To expand my abilities and reinforce my independence.

The most painful things that have been said to me in this game are all related to my usefulness. Such as the time that I was called a leech for salvaging instead of assisting someone in the project they wanted to do. And more recently, when I was told that I refuse to learn and do things to make myself useful. The results of those things is examination. Am I these things? What did I do to create the sense that I was not useful? How can I correct this? How can I be useful?

I have a burning sense of independence. I enjoy working with people. I enjoy doing stuff with others. But, I must have my own thing that I am the full owner of. I'm possessive of what I have created and I am proud of what I am able to do with myself. However, such things are held up by nothing but myself. That means my projects suffer when my time suffers.

Life is involves changes.

However, the latest changes have left me floundering a bit. I have, what is I believe a good opportunity. I can use a corporation POS to run my building instead of my own. Yet, I find myself not pleased as I should be. Which, to me seems silly. POS are expensive to run. But, I'm not used to getting things from others. It makes me uncomfortable.

Its a somewhat stupid set of emotions.


  1. I follow the stupid rule of "if I can't do it with one char I won't bother" because I want one and only one, and refuse to make/purchase alts. working with others helps overcome my limited skill set which is so scattered from cross training many things to try and be useful. Even though I still feel like I'm hindering and not helping, I haven't been booted yet. If people keep coming to you for help with action or ideas, you're doing something right. Keep on keepin' on.

    1. I don't mind having alts. I like to rely on myself. I do a lot of boring things that I enjoy as 'puttering' but its not the type of stuff I feel I can ask someone else to drop their things and come do with or for me.

  2. Just because its a corp POS doesnt mean much. I look at it this way, with unlimited slots now, you can do a lot with one POS. Its just a question of storage. So if they aren't utilizing the POS fully and you pay taxes to the corp like most people, then surely you are paying to use at least a portion of that POS no?

    1. By that rule I'd really be a leech. I don't do things that generate taxes. I had no idea what Snuff's taxes even were. I had to look and its .1%. The corp generates its money in other methods. Because I haven't been PvPing, I haven't been contributing much there. I do use the POS to build for the corp but dunno if thats 'much'.

      So, I probably don't pay for any portion of it to use it.

  3. I don't know the situation. But you not useful? A couple months ago, you earned your permanent seat on the CSM; a reflection of the high esteem many of us hold you in, for all you've done and will continue to do for this community. All the usefulness you've provided to many of us in the form of content. Whether its pouring your heart and soul into every blog post, working with CCP improve this game, stepping up to FC a bunch of hisec newbies, setting up local meets, and countless other situations. Whatever you think, you are a giant, a pillar of this community, one of those few willing to put herself out there to make things better, one conversation, one capsuleer at a time. Keep playing your game Sugar, few are in your league. Whatever they might think or say.

  4. What does the POS give you, that the local stations/s cannot? (no need to answer directly). Personally I can obtain mineral compression and a 25% time concession to construction should I bother. I elect to not to.

    I recently flew in some Incursion fleets. Not for want to attempting it solo and failing poorly. Wanting to do it on your own is not a crime or is it silly; even in a MMO. Just have to accept the limits of solo or reach out to friends.

    There is very little which is what I would say is 100% solo anyway. Megacyte and Zydrine are out of my casual reach as a manufacturer. So I exchange trit, pye or iso. Some of the fitted modules I did not make myself either. I am only alone, to the point that I believe I am.

    1. I do some capital ship construction and booster manufacturing. POS, POS, POS if I want to keep them up.

  5. Sugar,

    I can accept that you don't want to be a leech. For a human being, mooching sustenance of one’s host is not much of a life. But that’s far different than being offered a good deal. These days, with the advent of modern medicine and all, people rarely broker deals (good or bad) to leeches. Accordingly, if you're being handed a good deal, you can be pretty confident the that the one offering doesn’t see you as a leech.

    I know not what motivates the offeror (and from what you've written it appears you may not either) but I don't suspect the intent is to shame you.

    1. I know it is not about shame. It's simply a sensible thing to do.

      That is why I said I am prideful.

    2. Sugar,

      You’re a thoughtful individual which is one reason why the occasional posts where you wrestle with an emotionally laden decision can be quite fascinating. This post, if I read correctly, appears to orbit around two crucial notions, ‘useful’ and ‘pride’.

      ‘Useful’ in this post seems pretty easy to unravel . . . as if one was instructed to, “Go over there and make yourself useful.” So you head over there, apprise what’s happening and then pitch in to complete the project at hand. What exactly you do depends on the skills you bring and the needs you discover. If the situation suffers from a lack of labor you might grab a shovel and start digging. If the situation is a disorganized mess you might declare yourself in charge and start barking orders. If what you do successfully matches what’s needed then you are being useful.

      ‘Pride’ in this post is a little more difficult for me to unravel. If I read correctly, ‘pride’ appears to be wrapped up with autonomy and independence. As you explain, “I must have my own thing that I am the full owner of.” OK, I see the appeal. That said, if ‘full owner’ means I do it, I do it all and no one, absolutely no one can assist in the endeavor then you’ve set an impossibly high bar to ‘full owner’. You happen to produce supers. Do you and you alone mine the ore going into the supers? Do you and you alone reprocess the ore? Do you and you alone build the components of the POS that you and you alone maintain? Etc . . . Sooner or later (usually sooner), we all make use of other’s skills and labor though it rarely bothers us because we properly compensate them for the assist meaning we still maintain ‘full ownership’ of our project as the assisters have already been paid. Keeping projects ‘ours’ is built on this crucial bit of sleight of hand from the get go.

      So look Sugar, as best I can tell you've already been declared useful (that’s what my whole previous comment was about) and pride, as I’ve just vociferously argued, is built on a sleight of hand foundation anyway so, if you ask me (and you really should because I’m a super genius capsuleer ::wink::), there is no problem here. Rather, there’s just a bundle of conflicting emotions in need of a little clarification.


      “So do you think it will take?” asks the interlocutor.

      “I don’t honestly know,” replies DireNecessity. “I’m carefully dancing around ‘self-esteem’ which seems smattered throughout Sugar’s original post.”

      “Why avoid ‘self-esteem’?” continues the interlocutor.

      “Because I’m getting old and crusty and it annoys me,” DireNecessity responds. “If someone finds your presence valuable that speaks for itself. Discounting that found value because ~whatever~ really gets my goat. Not because the discounting lacks honesty (it can be a supremely honest feeling), but because it belittles the one who holds you in good regard.”

      “So you don’t want to chide Sugar,” declares the interlocutor.

      “Well actually I do want to chide her,” explains DireNecessity, “I just want to be careful about it.”

    3. Note Dire, that I started the entire thing pointing at what I felt was prideful and ridiculous feelings. As stupid as it may be, it doesn't discount the reality of it and what things do and do not mean. At the same time, I'm pointing out what is a flaw in my personality that makes something simple hard.

    4. Yah, criticizing someone for undervaluing their usefulness is a bit of a conundrum since it rarely produces what one is trying to achieve. Still, I must try so let me tell you a story.

      The hands behind the Dire are exceedingly old. One delight of aging is grandkids. Accordingly, it’s not at all unusual to drop on grid only to have one of the little darlings grab me by the hand, pull me over to where they were playing and point at a batch of stacked blocks squealing joyously, “Look what I made!” Now if I were a total asshat (and I try not to be with the grandkids) I could respond, “Oh really? You *carved* the blocks?” By most any measure that would be both unkind and unfair. The kid isn’t taking pride in the blocks’ existence, no the kid is taking pride in what she did with the blocks. Accordingly, my job is pretty simple . . . “You stacked those?” “What is it?” “Impressive.”

      Now, just like me undercutting the grandkid by pointing out she didn’t carve the blocks would be asshattery, allowing the same grandkid to undercut herself unchallenged (“Yah, I stacked those but it doesn’t really count since I didn’t carve the blocks”) would be a different and very possibly more harmful form of asshattery.

      You’re no child Sugar, but just like the grandkids you’re not only allowed to take pleasure and pride commensurate with the work you perform, you’re also, in my view, well-nigh obligated to take appropriate pleasure and pride. So yes, making use of another’s POS slightly diminishes the expanse of your capital producing project but it doesn’t entirely eliminate the expanse meaning the concurrent reduction in pleasure and pride you should take isn’t entirely eliminated either.

      I’m gonna hand you a brutally blunt fact Sugar. I like you. I suppose from your end that feels as much curse as blessing, especially right now as I continue to berate you, but dammit Sugar, I’m not gonna blithely let you undercut yourself. It’s not in me. I’m not that kind of asshat. And whatever you do, don’t drop the honest, thoughtful open and sincere spontaneity you bring to your posts because cranky old bastards like me occasionally yell at you for it. That will really annoy me. There’s nothing ridiculous about honest self-appraisal and there’s nothing stupid in examining one’s particular foibles. Just be thorough in the endeavor. We are, all of us, much more than weaknesses. We are our strengths too.


  6. Oh, well skin in the game has lots of implications for social structures. If you were a co-owner of the POS, or held shares in it, you would be default not be a leech, but a partner in the operation.

    This is probably the main thing that drives me from organizations. Free stuff or SRP holds no value to me. The corporate relationship is either client, contractor or partner. Anything nebulous is a slight, and the intention is clearly slavery. People put up with it because content is so hard to generate. They want to be in a group at all costs, and so will put up with most any indignity.

    Some of it is a product of bottom-up financing in corporations and alliances, maybe most of it. People grit their teeth and bury their pride when they follow an FC to drop a POCO or other structure. There's no other reason for except that they see some value in being part of the group.

    1. It depends on the view of the people in the organization. My alliance provides fitted ships for alliance fleets free to all members. I wouldn't call line members leaches though. We do alliance mining ops where the minerals go towards building said ships. Or we run sleeper sites or high end combat sites where the loot goes towards our war chest. People pitch in and what they get out of it is ships ready and waiting for them when we do PvP ops. In doing we create a sense of ownership in the organization from the top to the bottom. We do a heck of alot more as a group than we would as individuals. That being said I don't think we're necessarily representative of all corps or alliances.

  7. Maybe it's because i'm not a native english speaker but that part :

    " Such as the time that I was called a leech for salvaging instead of assisting someone in the project they wanted to do. And more recently, when I was told that I refuse to learn and do things to make myself useful."

    That make me want to punch the Capsuleer who said that in the face. First you don't NEED to be usefull. You need to do what you like. It's ok to point consequences or to explain mechanics. But judging somebody on their gameplay should never happen.

    On the POS problem, here is how i would saw it from my NullSec POV. A corp provide a way to share a tool and the consequences of this tool. You participate to your corp in other way. You are seeding the market, you build things for people, you are creating content, you as a human being bring things to your comms/chat.

    You are providing something. And if you really want to do things in exchange of this corp POS, there is a lot of way to do that. Building for other people. Offering a services to haul things. Creating some Fuel Block for the POS. Etc, Etc. Everybody is useful in New Eden. The most valuable ressource in New Eden is capsuleer time, it's the only finite one. You are giving yours to the community. You are contributing.

  8. You worry about not paying something for the use of the POS? Have you checked the taxes attached to the structures? If you are so eager to pay something for the use of POS make the owner aware that he can set up use-fees. With the ability to switch between corp account and private wallet in the industry window it is no problem any more to pay use-fee for private uses.

    And if you feel useless or someone else tells you that, go take a look at your transaction tab of your trading corporation or character. You see all this buyers? For all of them you did something very useful. They got there stuff in that location instead of having to go somewhere else. Not to mention your tireless efforts for CSM.

    1. Then the taxes get passed onto the buyer. At some point the cycle of low price for being done in corp or by a corpmate starts to break down. Someone takes that hit. This is a rebalance of those chances but that cycle leaves 'my hands' so to speak and goes to someone else in this case the corps. Bleh. Its a small thing and I don't feel free enough to share the details enough to explain why taxing wouldn't be the solution to balance this situation but it would not be.

      I very much try to separate my CSM stuff from my regular game stuff. I know they effect each other but I don't want it to be a crutch.

    2. It's not a crutch, it's a fact. Your time is dominated by the CSM. It has an effect on what else you can accomplish.

      Nobody in your corporation or alliance, or for that matter, nobody who has been paying attention to your work for the last 1.5 years, considers you useless. There will always be an outlier or two who, because you didn't slay that particular dragon they wanted slayed, feel you haven't been useful enough. Those people always turn out to be self-centered buffoons, and it's always best to ignore them.

      There's no need for you to search for ways to be useful. You're already there. In fact, 'useful' denigrates your contributions.

  9. "reaching new abilities and doing new things. Alts spoiled that feeling."

    I love unlocking new abilities and doing new things, including on my alts!

    - Than


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