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Where is Everyone?

What is Population?

I was watching some light, verbal sparing about low secs population. I grew up in Molden Heath and the big city of the Citadel is still odd to me. I've often been told that Molden is a dead back water. I figured that I was rather active and kept myself busy and obsessed with Eve so it could not have been but so bad.  But, I do have to admit that it is busier in Sujarento then it was in Bosena.

Busy does not make for better. Just different. What you do in each area of space changes with the population. I've never understood AFK cloaking because I am a low sec resident and I expect everyone in space with me to harm me unless they are my corporation or alliance. It makes undocking a judgement call where sometimes you lost things and sometimes you do not.

But space is not dead just because the pilots we may want to populate it, do not. Non-combatants may hide under the proverbial asteroid as the sleek hunter passes by. The hunter has nothing to hunt because the prey is alert and aware and seeks the deepest most empty voids to occupy. All space does not have to be inhabited equally for it to be inhabited. As I've lived in busier space I miss an area that is more quiet. Eve's a big game and some of us like going to live on the other side of the mountain without that meaning going to wormhole space.

But, the question of where people live is popular. CCP Quant decided to answer some population graph questions posed by Dirk McGirk and give some graph porn on Twitter. He started a few days ago with 'Active Characters by Solar System Security Class'.


Gee then asked if it showed movement. CCP Quant responded with a relative change graph of active characters by solar system security class.


Mike Pegg asked if we could see a split of NPC Null and Sov Null. CCP Quant delivered.


And then because he likes Corbexx more then me, he added one of w-space by class.


I asked for FW and non-FW warfare. How best should that be split up do you think? I'll write a request which I've been meaning to do anyway. Beyond that, while not as detailed as some would like it is interesting stuff.

Comments

  1. FW and Non-FW. Hmmm, a difficult question.
    Not to mention the number of regions where low-sec and high-sec are intertwined.

    I guess, first by Empire faction : Gallente/Caldari/etcetc.
    Then I'd compare Faction warfare systems to non-faction warfare systems.
    Then I'd look at FW systems over number of FW systems vs non-FW over non-FW systems.

    That'd show a) which Faction's low-sec is the most populated, b) FWarriors and the attendees vs general low-sec population, and finally c) density of population (though we all (I think) know that FW low-sec will be more populated.

    And we'll need all the delta charts for those, naturally. I'm not asking too much? :P

    This does lead to other thoughts, that I might reply to this comment with.

    Rob K.

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    Replies
    1. The problem will be the closely linked nature of Highsec and Lowsec. Not knowing how CCP is measuring this, active characters in high that work in low, like hauler and JF alts, will be counted as highsec characters. This could significantly skew the chart. Similarly PI alts that spend time docked up in highsec, but don't work there, will be unrepresented.

      It seems to me that no other areas of space are so closely intertwined as the positive sec community. Perhaps we should take this view in terms of design? Placing areas of space on a scale is all well and good, but it doesn't represent the interplay between high-sec and low-sec terribly well.

      Rob K.

      (Fair warning, this was written at 2 am, and is probably devoid of any value)

      Delete
    2. I presume by 'Active Characters' CCP is handing us a daily snapshot of where characters are located at the time of that snapshot. It's certainly true that such snapshots won't reveal whether a particular character dabbles in both High, Low and/or Null (JF alts) but I suspect, in aggregate, we're getting a pretty reasonable picture.

      The graphs can’t reveal where characters would say they reside (i.e. where they would attach their identity), but rather merely reveals where they actually are at snapshot time. Trying to measure what space people call home is a bit of a conundrum since it need not (and often doesn't) match where they spend the most time. See Sugar’s ‘Nuances of Self’ http://www.lowseclifestyle.com/2015/03/nuances-of-self.html for a recent exploration of just this kind of question.

      Delete
  2. Nice graphs. But we all know that they are pointless and misleading,

    When CCP says that 62% of their customers barely bother to move out of highsec (12% some don't even bother to undock), that means nothing.

    When graph upon graph show how highsec space triples the population of all other spaces combined, that means nothing.

    Everything is fine with highsec. Everything is fine with PvE. Everything is fine with player retention. Everything is fine with focusing in the small but faithful who give a lot of feedback and ignore the hordes who vote with their feet.

    I've read that CCP Fozzie is boosting (again) the mineral output of nullsec ores, and artificially doubling the demand of certain nullsec minerals.

    Apparently, there's not enough mining going on in nullsec.

    I bet CCP wonders why.

    And I bet they haven't asked a single highsec miner why do they like to mine. Because any answer to that question would mean nothing...

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Newsflash; Those who participate, make policy. More at eleven.

      Delete
    2. Newsflash: in EVE as in politics, those who don't participate pay the show. Yet unlike paying taxes, subscribing to EVE is not mandatory.

      Companies live from their customers, not from their fans. And CCP is making a questionable job at understanding and caring about their customers' needs rather than pander to their fans' whims.

      Delete
    3. Their fans are *also* their customers, an unlike the 'silent majority' you allude too (how does being in the company of Nixon feel btw?) they make their needs known.

      You can't cater to people who don't tell you what they'd like. Hence those who participate are the ones that get 'served'. Spouting angry vitriol is traditionally an exceptionally poor way to create sympathy or get heard for the record. It mostly just makes people think you're an ass and consequently ignore you.

      Delete
    4. A customer who never lets a company know why they are dissatisfied and then simply leaves is a customer the company can't try to help. CCP has put out quite a few surveys and feedback threads but if people don't take advantage, then how is CCP to know what's bothering people.

      It is EXACTLY like politics; if you don't tell your local politician what you like and don't like, they can't know.

      Mind reading is still a ways off.

      Delete
    5. "It is EXACTLY like politics; if you don't tell your local politician what you like and don't like, they can't know."

      Well, there's that thing called "opinion surveying". Rather than wait for people to come to your HQ in Iceland and tell you what's wrong/right, you go and engage them actively.

      "Huh, they don't talk, thus they don't have anything worthy to say nor anything we should learn" is a deadly mistake when your company depends on that people and their numbers are thinning.

      The average EVE player never engages in PvP, never leaves highsec and stays subscribed only for a few months or a couple years maximum because the content provided to them is terrible and well below the EVE standard. So, sooner than later CCP will run out of people who still haven't tried the game and match that profile.

      CCP's attitude is to focus on the guys who "play the game right", the 30% of "Professionals", but they're running out of Entrepreneurs, Traditionals an even Socializers. And that's a waste that serves no purpose but to rub CCP's ego at having a hardcore PvP game were anything not related to messing with other players is garbage because CCP never bothered to take it seriously.

      This is why nonsense happens and CCP Fozzie tries to lure more miners to nullsec with increased rewards, rather than ask miners why do they mine and why only a tiny minority bothers to mine outside of highsec. The real question is not "what ticks the heart of the tiny minority who doesn't mines in high?", but "what ticks the heart of the average EVE miner?" If you want more miners in null, and miners are a highsec bunch, the right people to ask are those highsec miners. Who don't belong to alliances, never read the forums, never vote CSM and essentially never say a word.

      But they have an opinion worth knowing, if CCP Fozzie just asked them. Want more miners in null? Miners live in highsec. Ask them why.

      Or alternatively just ignore them and dream about how succesful would be to have 2.5% more miners in nullsec after doubling the rewards. Or keep increasing the amount of tritanium in Arkonor until it's 100,000 units per batch and *eventually* nullsec mining provides enough of the minerals consumed in nullsec...

      In politics, you can ignore people who don't speak as their money flows into your pockets the same. But CCP is reaching a point where 62% of their potential new subscribers will find greener pastures elsewhere unless CCP eventually takes them seriously and figures a way so EVE is a great game for everyone, even if they never shoot at player assets.

      Delete
    6. Onions,

      How do you get answers from peopoe who wont talk? How do yoy interact with people who ignore? How do you gather information where none has been given?

      You keep insisting that no one tries to talk to people. You are wrong. Communication is a two way street. People have to respond.

      You just wrote a lecture about how no one tries to reach out to anyone but PvPers. That is bullshit. I normally say little to your bitterness. It is yours and the only thing that may change it is time and change. You cling to it and want it. I'm not going to try to take it from you. But now you are raging about things that you are making up. You are spouting facts and preaching from a soapbox that exists for you.

      So, answer your own questions. You tell me how you engage people who don't want to be engaged. You say no one tries to talk as if everyone is just chatting and CCP o ky picks out the PvPers to coo at.

      I'd adore if these people you insist ate ignored would talk to me. I hit so many dead walla trying to communicate with people on these exact issues. I take what I can get and I'm glad for it.

      So enlighten me, Onions. Tell me where they are and where I can listen to them and where I can learn from them. Tell me where all this information that everyone but you ignores for the love of apvP and hatred of everything else.

      You act as if you sit upon the keys of knowledge. Then open the door.

      Delete
    7. So why do miners choose high-sec instead of the other areas of the game?

      I always assumed it was because they feel that it has the best ratio of risk versus reward or simply because it is the safest area in the game, allowing them to mine with the fewest interruptions whilst paying the least attention to the client (i.e. Dscan and Local)

      If the above is true then the rewards of mining are imbalanced in favour of high-sec and buffing mining in other areas of the game will rectify this. As the safest area of the game, high-sec should be the least profitable and have the worst balance of risk versus reward; it subverts the player ecosystem of predator and prey.

      I think that the goal of this change is to reward miners who do leave the protection of CONCORD rather than push high-sec miners towards null-sec.

      "Apparently, there's not enough mining going on in nullsec.

      I bet CCP wonders why.

      And I bet they haven't asked a single highsec miner why do they like to mine. Because any answer to that question would mean nothing..."

      So what is the answer? You might not be a miner but you clearly have an idea.

      Delete
    8. Onions,

      How do you get answers from peopoe who wont talk? How do yoy interact with people who ignore? How do you gather information where none has been given?

      You keep insisting that no one tries to talk to people. You are wrong. Communication is a two way street. People have to respond.

      You just wrote a lecture about how no one tries to reach out to anyone but PvPers. That is bullshit. I normally say little to your bitterness. It is yours and the only thing that may change it is time and change. You cling to it and want it. I'm not going to try to take it from you. But now you are raging about things that you are making up. You are spouting facts and preaching from a soapbox that exists for you.

      So, answer your own questions. You tell me how you engage people who don't want to be engaged. You say no one tries to talk as if everyone is just chatting and CCP o ky picks out the PvPers to coo at.

      I'd adore if these people you insist ate ignored would talk to me. I hit so many dead walla trying to communicate with people on these exact issues. I take what I can get and I'm glad for it.

      So enlighten me, Onions. Tell me where they are and where I can listen to them and where I can learn from them. Tell me where all this information that everyone but you ignores for the love of apvP and hatred of everything else.

      You act as if you sit upon the keys of knowledge. Then open the door.

      Delete
    9. @Sugar:

      I never had much trouble finding that people. I just used my language channel, as it provided a nice cross section of the player base. Then CCP removed it and apparently that has killed our community but oh I'm not playing the game any more...

      People tend to gather by activities. I guess that there may be mining chats, as much as mission running chats, or whatever. Of course CCP makes nigh impossible to find them unless you know the /exact/ name of the channel and somebody told you they do exist (CCP design at its finest, issue #4,809).

      But, it used to be easy to find people who played in every possible way, and spoke my language. Meeting that people allowed to track them back to their ingame communities, even specialyzed chats. That's how I got acquitances a bit around the game... people who could give me a lead into WH, Incursion running, Sov nullsec, NPC nullsec, PI, FW...

      Of course there is not a general "english language" channel. My best guess would be trying with the help channel -the veterans in it at least are people who want to talk about what they do ingame. *Some* may be veteran enough to not want CCP messing with what they do, though.

      As for the two communities I know (knew?) best....

      How do you talk to highsec miners? Being one, joining a public fleet, and chatting in fleet chat. Miners generally like chatting. They're not in the game for the thrill, but to relax. Go figure how does that fit in EVE according to anyone not a miner. Some miners chase popular minerals, guided by price. Others are just part of supply chains, mining for themselves or their more-than-one-man corp. So they can be easily found in the same systems, at the same hours, day after day. (Ice miners may be even easier to find, with the anomaly mechanics dictating their schedule).

      And how about mission runners? Those are a tougher gang. They are worried about gankers and generally try to keep a low profile and ignore all attempts to communicate ingame -EVE is a hostile place for someone flying 2 billion ISK in a PvE fit. Assuming the worst is part of survival. Yet CCP haves some advantages. First, they know who those people are, by checking their ingame activity. Second, CCP can send a mail introducing themselves as CCP and saying "we want to know more of how you play our game, care to chat with us?". That should work until gankers started disguising themselves as CCP personnel in order to set up a trap and gank mission runners...

      You know, most people love to talk about what they like doing. EVE is a very hostile place to do that (I wonder how lucky has been Mike with the Magic School Bus project, btw) but generally speaking they can be engaged when they risk nothing (not while they're in space avoiding PvP).

      Finding them based on what they do is something CCP can do. And the game is full of stuff that doesn't looks like it's been influenced by the people who likes it. Players have no voice nor influence on PvE, which would not matter if PvE in EVE was a great thing. But it isn't. PvE in EVE is just a grind at best. And the people suffering it would rather leave the godawful game EVE is from their point of view, than bother with fighting to improve it.

      Unless they're insane crackpots like Angry Onions...

      Delete
    10. BTW, @Sugar: I am aware that you and other members of the CSM have been doing an effort to reach and contact players who aren't proactive about their interests and woes and yet are a relevant part of that amorphous blob called "the player base".

      Yet my impression is that CCP Seagull and the "user oriented design" strategy are just preaching to the choir, which is something CCP always did in different degrees. We are suppsoed to trust that once CCP si done with nullsec and the new nullsec space beyond player built gates, they maybe will focus on highsec content for a change. Maybe give the players a chance to generate content by other means than destroying stuff? For an instance: what if anomalies were generated by player structures rather than spawn passively? How about player generated missions? How about NPC interaction providing bonuses or penalties?

      The choir will never ask for those. And yet they would do wonders to improve the retention of that 62% who never paid CCP for the pew-pew and rarely last more than two years as subscribers.

      Delete
  3. It's really neat to see this kind of info but even neater to see the interaction between devs and players via Twitter! I'd love to see some graphporn related to Thera, maybe a comparison of daily traffic departing and entering that system to/from null, low, high, and w-space.

    ReplyDelete
  4. This might be an awful lot of work for Quant, and he might not want to share the answers, but I wonder whether he could chart our moves, broken down into the various possibilities: hi-->lo, lo-->null, null-->w, etc.

    Relocations aren't always tidy or permanent, but I'd like to get a picture of the volatility. There must be players moving to hisec all the time, for example, but with total moves away outweighing these. For every character that moves more or less for good to w-space, are there tons more more who go but change their minds?

    ReplyDelete

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