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Forever and Ever?

To open a contentious box, what are real consequences in a video game?

I was writing my 20th history post. I had hoped to finish it today but time has rushed by and other tasks consumed time. It has spawned a few questions that I may write about over the next few days.

I came across the change to missions that allowed players to grind their standings back up from negative. Before, a player could be completely locked out of a faction with no access to agents. This would be a consequence for their actions before. They fought the wrong faction. They killed the wrong ships. Their past has followed them into their future and now that faction will never forgive them.

Eve is a grim, dark world with real consequences. Your actions matter. Your decisions are taken into account. Harden the fuck up. Deal with it. That sounds so very familiar. Yet, every time I come into this I have two questions.

  • But what of redemption?
  • And where does the line between video game for pleasure during your free time and consequences meet?
Back when I was in collage and still playing MUDs, one of the guys developed his own MUD. He developed this intricate death system. It punished you when you died. You'd get locked out of things for longer and longer. Dying was not just a matter of hitting your script to run to the Resurrection chamber, get your stuff, loot it all, and head back out. Dying made you stop, pause, and suffer for your choice. 

It made complete sense. It was also terrible to actually play. He often made systems like this. Elegant. Intricate. Real. And shit game play.

Any change proposed in Eve that will increase accessibility is often countered with things like consequences mattering. When Tags4Sec were introduced, people said that it meant people would not suffer for their immoral choices. They would just buy tags, laughing as they drank blood from their victims and swarm into high sec to reign destruction down. 

Only, it didn't quite go that way. Now, we're looking at some improvement on standings gains. The immediate response is that people should pay for their actions. Shooting or engaging against another faction loses standings. Deal with it.

Is deal with it healthy for the game? Is it what we want for Eve? What is a choice that matters? Do we ever actually answer that? Is being able to improve your standings with ISK instead of a week long trip into null sec better game play because it sucks for the person to do? That would be punishment, not consequence.

  1. : something that happens as a result of a particular action or set of conditions
  2. : importance or value

I think that we often speak about punishment vs consequence. We also speak about permanence. In a game played for pleasure and relaxation negative and permanent things reach out and affect the player. If you make this decision it will follow you forever and ever and ever. Choose wisely.

Only there is a problem. Eve often does not allow people to make educated decisions. I dislike the idea of permanence when people are ignorant to what they are doing. Standings, in their current incarnation often fall into this. Mix in Eve's weird culture of game play outside of the structured content provided by the game and people wind up in situations without knowing how they got there and finding that they are repairing the damage after the fact.

I often find myself asking people why someone would want to play the game they are discussion. Why someone would want to do the task they are creating. There are many, may amazing sounding things that would be great in books or a story but when brought into the free time and engagement of a player they, in my opinion, break down.

Fun is an elusive term. We can enjoy something without being fed endless cookies and bacon. I've been listening to my husband's frustration playing Banished today. He keeps building to fast. His people can't bring in the supplies they need and they starve to death a handful of years into his game. He restarts. He is learning. He will hopefully make it past year seven at some point. But, Banished hasn't told him that no one will come live in his settlement because he can't get himself together to let them live to old age and they don't want to starve to death.

The video game can't be forgotten for the beautiful concepts. The beautiful concepts are what make the video game.


  1. The problem with forgiving (non-consequence) systems is that they are soon encroached by morons, drunken idiots and people who play only to kill time. They then kill the game experience, not with their bad playing, but with their toxic socialization.

    Someone who can't figure out that shooting Gallente ships will make him disliked by Gallente faction isn't someone I'd want to spend my recreational time with. Not because we can't play Gallente together, but because he most likely talk like an imbecile, spams porn links and calls PvP "rape".

    1. If someone syrugglesnwith a game mechanic it is because they are to stupid to play and we should just ount them into the to stupid to be worth it like?

      I suck at tons of Eve gameplay. I fail at PI for instance which I am good is easy. Which I know you make plenty if ISK from. I also fail at the conventional methodsnof station trading. I'm a horrible missioner as well and never min/max a thing.

      The tutorials cause some people to interpret FW as next. they may join and like it. It may become their world and six montga later they decide to grow in the game but they find out the punishment.

      I said redemption which is not forgiveness. It is the ability to gain forgiveness. It seems a natural balance to punishment which seems to be what people mean and not consequences.

      If Eve is a harsh dark game full of punishment and exquisitely painful redemption made to stop you from the mistake of an action that should be up front and clear as a development goal.

    2. As usual, Gevlon is right but uses arrogance to score points. A game fundamentally is played to "kill time" and some moron, slacker etc pays the exact same amount as a perfectly informed expert. In the eyes of a game company, "pecunia non olet" and CCP does well to remember that or the game will peter out with 10k chest-beating experts and their alts. New players - and yes, morons, slackers - need to have a place in it.

      Now, with the concept of "consequences" comes "choices". I _choose_ to fly a with a small, tight-knit team that does not tolerate porn links. Because EVE gives me choices, it also gives me the choice to do dumb things, like breaking my standing with a faction inadvertently or assume that sponsoring some nullsec bloc over another has any impact on the game as a whole.

    3. Oh come on... " - and yes, morons, slackers - need to have a place in it." NO. Simply, no. They do not. This is the one thing i love most about EVE... we have very very few actual idiots, if any at all ingame. Why, because it is hard and complex and there are mature serious consequences to your choices and actions.

      There is a story that I love... from a comment I wish I still had the link to, a guy was playing EVE and his 15yo son and a friend saw it and the friend was all excited... so dad started 2 trials and set them both up... and sat back... It took, he said, less than an hour before he heard... "It's gonna take HOW long to fly that?" and "You mean I can't kill EVERYTHING!?!" then... "F--K THIS S--T!!" and the boys went back to Halo on the Xbox... Hells YES!

      EVE is the first, mebbe the only real adult MMO... and I obviously don't mean sex. I mean adult level, intelligence required, maturity required, forethought and patience required game. Because it is hard to learn, because it is hard to play, because it has consequences and because it has long term gameplay... not 'short term immediate satisfaction' only gameplay. (...and no, "maturity" does not mean you can't also be an Ahole... it just means you see the value in the long game. And they are the price we pay for the freedom of the sandbox...)

      So No... I don't ever want to see EVE dumbed down for the real mouth breathers and pimple faced teens... they are one of the reason's I will never play other MMO games... and we do not have to accept that. EVE has done just fine over the last 11 years... No, we are not WoW... and thank the gods for that. But it does mean accepting that EVE is a niche game... and I have yet to read or hear anything from CCP that contradicts this basic philosophy.

    4. You guys might be taking this a bit far. Yes Eve is amazing because of its harshness. The difficulty is what makes it great. I totally agree.

      However the difference between redemption and forgiveness is work. If you want to recover from bad standings then you have to grind missions. You have to devote time and effort to undoing a mistake.

      This sort of recovery is a good thing. I had my ship blown up. I'm not forgiven and given a new one. Instead I have to redeem myself by making enough isk to buy another one. There are consequences, but they dont need to be permanent. They can be reversible with effort!

  2. OMG... will wonders never cease? I find myself... agreeing with the Green Goblin... /o\ Sugar, I love ya lady, I swear I do... but there are times when you are just almost too 'nice' for EVE.

    The reason we, well at least the reason "I" scream into the dark against the 'small' changes... the 'little harmless' nerfs... is because they add up over time... and with enough time, and enough 'oh let's just make this little thing here just a tad easier and safer, it won't hurt anything. really'...' and you slowly, oh so slowly end up with WoW in Space... and the consequence there is that we LOSE all that makes EVE different... and special... Consequences.

    And real consequences suck... otherwise, they would not be 'consequences' now would they?

    1. More things qualify as a consequence then punishment. If you want permenent and unpleasant punishment for actions that is what you want. That is not the only way to define consequence.

      If it makes me to nice for Eve because I ask people why they want one thing over another and ask questions instead of clinging to what ai believe the definition is then so be it.

    2. I was so afraid you would take that wrong or as a slight... It was NOT meant that way, I swear... Ms Kyle, I have absolutely the highest regard for you and the deepest respect for your work on the CSM and your blogging and what you have accomplished in EVE. You asking people good needful questions about our game and that you are listening to them is why I respect you so much... so few actually listen.

      As for consequences and punishment...
      The goal of Punishment is to enforce compliance with the rules by using external controls or authoritarian discipline.

      While effective in stopping the misbehavior of the moment, Punishment does little to increase an understanding of responsibility. Punishment often leads to feelings of anger, discouragement and resentment, and an increase in attempts of evasion and deception.

      CONCORD is an example of Punishment.
      Perform a proscribed act, IE gank a miner, and CONCORD destroys your ship(s). The players who were directly involved are effectively stopped, temporarily, until they reship and wait out the aggression timers but that’s all.

      The goal of Consequences is to teach people to develop self-control and an understanding of the need to accept and work with the realities of situations as they exist and to follow the rules.

      Consequences help people look more closely at their behaviors and consider the results of their choices. Unlike Punishment, where the intention is to make a person feel shamed, the intention of Consequences is to help people develop internal controls and to learn from their mistakes.

      Loss is Real in EVE is an example of Consequences.
      In most games you do not, or cannot, lose anything of any real value. In WoW once something is bound to your char, that’s it. Unless you sell it or something you will have it ‘forever’. Nothing player created and very little that is NPC created in EVE is like that… (skills are now, but they didn’t use to be…) and that impermanence, the potential that everything you own, made or have in the game can be permanently lost to your or another players actions is a Consequence that impacts everything we do in the game.

      This is, to me, the biggest hurdle so many players coming into EVE from the rest of the gaming world have to overcome and is why there is so much written and discussed and argued about.

      And the basis of all of that is Open PvP… the ability of a player or group of players to attack and potentially destroy and/or podkill any other player or group of players anywhere in the game. In Open PvP there are Consequences for the attacker and Consequences for the defender.

      The difference is the attacker has the ability to plan how to mitigate his Consequences in advance… He knows CONCORD will use Punishment, IE will destroy the ships(s) and about how long it will take so he is able to plan for that and use ships he can afford to lose and select only targets that are potentially lucrative in comparison to his losses. This feels unbalanced to the defender especially if he is not interested in PvP.

      This is where players need to learn from the Consequences… For just one example, for heavy haulers and freighters…
      (1) Simply don’t carry a high enough ISK value that you are a worthwhile target. Approximately 50% of your cargo may drop, so keep that 50% value figure low enough that the cost of the ships needed to kill your is the same or higher and…

      (2) Maximize where possible your defenses to drive the cost of the ships and fits needed to kill you up. Both of these make you less of an attractive target.

      (3) If hauling expensive cargo, use webwarps and support logi flying in fleet to assist you and, of course…

      (4) plan your route, wherever and if at all possible, carefully avoiding known camps and high Industrial kill areas.

      These modifications of gameplay are the Consequences players have to accept and work with in an Open PvP sandbox. The only way to change that is to change the core of the game from a sandbox to something else.

    3. I'm not offended. Nothing would happen if everyone had to make me happy.

      You still hold tightly to punishment and negative focused consequences in your definitions.

    4. Hey Tur, things in EVE aren't any more real then in WoW, they're just a virtual, and one day when the EVE servers go off they'll all vanish just like all the things in WoW will one day and all the things in probably every other MMO.

      Virtual reality != Reality.

      They only real things in MMO's are the connections you make through them in the real world, not any of the ingame stuff, that's just pixel make belief.

    5. I do hold on to consequences... that I do. And I do so because all of this is virtual... and the only real thing we take from it are those connections we make with others and our experiences with them... and how they shape us and how we react to them. All else is transient even IRL... change is the only constant and experience is the only thing we take with us from this life to the next... if such exists.

      May I ask... what other mechanics do you feel might be applicable to replace P&C in EVE?

      That Punishment and Consequences (P&C) thing I posted... edited of course for EVE specifically, but the core text originated on a site about school kids and P&C as relates to learning and social growth.

    6. You just made this entire huge rant about consequences and punishment as if somehow these things are the core of EVE. I don' t believe that, EVE like any MMO is ultimately about people and doing stuff with them or against them in an environment that allows for artificial make believe rivalry. But EVE isn't some super special MMO that's super different from all the other ones just because it has permanent loss (which isn't even unique, I'd argue Hardcore in Diablo 2 & 3 is more permanent then anything EVE offers) and because it is relatively sandboxy. It shares many of its core mechanics with other mmo's. And it's PvE for example is pretty atrocious in comparison to most to be frank.
      The Secret World has a fairly unique system where some of it's quests need you to do actual research outside the game, this appeals massively to some people (with enough self control to stay of google) and makes it unique after a fashion and in some ways more challenging then EVE, is it a better MMO? No just different, I enjoy both. My catholic upbringing and thusly acquired bible knowledge helped me more in The Secret World then it ever did with the Amarr Empire though ;-)

      Do you really believe you attach more emotional value to your super special wormhole tech 3 (or whatever prize ship you treasure most), then say a WoW player does to the high end raid item he worked many weeks/months to obtain? Sure your ship can get blown up but then you'll replace it after some effort, maybe with a shinier better T3 with more awesome stuff on it. And the WoW players raid item will become obsolete at some point with a newer harder raid and then that player spends a large amount of time in this harder raid to replace it and he'll treasure his new item for a bit (the fact he has the old item forever is irrelevant, since it becomes defacto worthless). Both of you will probably spend some time connecting with other people doing it. And both of you spend time obtaining/building whatever you value in your respective make belief environments. And that is in my view your only real investment, your time, which I sincerely hope you bot enjoyed spending in either EVE or WoW or whatever game. And removing things from EVE that make you spend your time doing stuff that isn' t enjoyable so you can spend more time doing things you enjoy doesn' t make it 'more like WoW' It would make it less 'like WoW' it's these so called ' themepark mmo's' after all that rely on 'grind' to keep you engaged and here you are comparing EVE to WoW aand arguing for keeping something in EVE (consequences, read; grind) to keep it less like WoW (where in my mind that reputation grind is something it actually has in common with WoW...) You puzzle me.

      If you somehow think (and I rather hope you don't) 20 hours spend enjoying EVE are somehow superior to 20 hours spend enjoying WoW or the Secret World or whatever MMO environment I don't really know what to say to you, other then; aren't you a little old to be a fanboy?

      And at the end of the day it's just fucking video games man.

    7. Wow... OK, "...aren't you a little old to be a fanboy?" and "at the end of the day it's just fucking video games man."...

      Then why do you care what I think or say? The "'s just fucking video games man." says all I need to know about how you see this.But to me yes, it is more. But it is not what you think, it is not because of the 'pixels'... it is because I play this game with my sons and the friends I have made over 4 years here.That is the real value in this or any game to me.

      That for me, those other ships... those 'pixels' I see on the screen... I know they are people, as real as I am, some even more deeply invested in the game than I, some, like you, not so much... by that I mean to you it is "just a game" and nothing more so you don't understand or accept the viewpoint of those for whom it IS more... and who value it more than you... and so you look down on them.

      Calling a 54 yo adult a 'fanboy' because he enjoys his hobby so much he writes, blogs and comments about it. Implying I am 'silly' (implying, IE not saying it outright) by asking, "Do you really believe you attach more emotional value to your super special wormhole tech 3 (or whatever prize ship you treasure most)..." which you assume I am talking about, proving you do not understand me or my take on the game as I don't have any such 'pixel' ship... I care about the game play and about the players... all of them, from the guy who 'blings out his Raven' solo and screams when it is ganked to the goon who loves nothing more than the screams of that player as he and his gank destroy his 'pixel' ship... and all the myriad PEOPLE in between that make up the only real part of this, or any game...

      You see, to me, it's not just fucking video games... it's about the people who play those games.

    8. Yes if you actually understood a word of what I said, you would have noticed that we agree on the notion it's about the enjoyment people derive from the games and the people themselves.

      All the other stuff is make believe. And were you weird me out is where you say it's about those people indeed and then you go on to list the myriad things you feel people playing EVE should adhere to and what is the 'right' way to play. And that is where I think you may no longer be entirely in possession of your sanity. You see there is nothing wrong with people who enjoy HALO on the xbox they just don't like what you like, this is not a crime or a deep flaw in their character that's just people enjoying different things. There's also nothing wrong with people who enjoy none of the sandboxy stuff in EVE and just want to mine all day or run lvl 4's in highsec all day.

      If your boys loved say league of legends or dota2 (or god forbid HALO on the xbox) instead of EVE and enjoyed spending time with their dad playing those would you not? And do you nor think you might conceivable you would play them with them and come to enjoy them? Would you think 'less'of them? I sure hope not.

      "EVE is the first, mebbe the only real adult MMO... and I obviously don't mean sex. I mean adult level, intelligence required, maturity required, forethought and patience required game. Because it is hard to learn, because it is hard to play, because it has consequences and because it has long term gameplay... not 'short term immediate satisfaction' only gameplay. (...and no, "maturity" does not mean you can't also be an Ahole... it just means you see the value in the long game. And they are the price we pay for the freedom of the sandbox...)"

      See I read that and all my alarm bells start going of. I *am* an elitist dick (or used to be one at least) so I'm pretty good at spotting them too. And first of all none of them are true EVE doesn't require anymore intelligence or maturity then most games. At best it requires perseverance to put up with the incredibly obtuse interface and poor delivery of information. So yeah perhaps EVE players are on average more bullheaded but they sure as hell aren't more intelligent or mature. You ever even read local chat in some places?

      I used to play Guild Wars with a dentist and a well respected newspaper journalist and a former SAS officer none of them liked EVE much am I to assume this is for lack of intelligence or maturity? I doubt it.

    9. Kaeda, lets just agree to disagree... OK? Cause you are reading me all wrong and evidently think I am some kinda insane person (fuck... really?)... Look, you feel the way you do, and I feel the way I do... somehow, we both enjoy EVE...

      Oh and BTW, I play HALO, CoD, Minecraft, The Evil Within, Diablo II, Mario Cart, Monopoly, Gin Rummy and Poker among other games FFS...

      It's your, "All the other stuff is make believe." that I disagree with... you virtually attack a players pixel spaceship and virtually destroy it and he get for real as fuck upset... that's not make believe. You affected a person... you did something, no matter where or how, that affected them... that shit is real.

      ...whatever... I'm done with this.

    10. Yes, getting outrageously upset over the loss of pixels is the digital equivalent of flipping over the board and stomping out of the room screaming. Not something most people consider normal or acceptable behavior. But yeah it's a real emotion I suppose (albeit way out of proportion to me).

      Going *shughs! darnit! you beat me grrr! well played! I'll win next time!* with a perhaps a slightly unbelieving face about being bested is the severest reaction most 'normal' people have about losing a game (on a non-professional this is my job level). That's still real but hardly something that will ruin that persons day.
      And if people play a game with the aim of *actually ruining* someone's real world day, because that makes them feel good, well I don't know what to say to those people really, in fact I'd rather not talk to them at all I think.

    11. *shughs! darnit! you beat me grrr! well played! I'll win next time!*....

      So you have never seen anyone flip over the board and stomping out of the room screaming? I have... and not just children either. Ever seen a riot following a football* (soccer to us Yanks) game in Europe? Ever seen a Hockey game break out during a fight? Ever heard of anyone murdered over poker?

      Please understand I respectfully disagree. There are far far too many historical and current cases of people, individually and in groups, who are so deeply emotionally involved in games that their responses to wins and losses far exceed the desired social norm up to things like DDOS attacks on servers, RL interference with players up to including physical harm or even worse.

      It is not, thank gods, the way we all react, but it its the way many do... and whether we like it or not, we do have to accept and deal with it as a reality of gaming. At least I accept it... as much as I too wish we all wanted the GF...

  3. Consequences make actions meaningful; but "punishment" is subjective -- one person's punishment is not so to another, so I think it's better to phrase game mechanics only in terms of "consequences" and not "punishments". (The aim of the game is not to "punish", e.g., shooting rats or hisec suicide ganking, only to impose some costs in doing so -- to "punish" would imply the action is actually discouraged, at which point, from a game design perspective, the devs may as well just remove it.)

    As far as newbros getting "punished" due to ignorance (which is not their fault): rather than water down or remove the consequences, which I am strongly against, the better option is simply to add clear warnings. Probably things like disabling setting safety yellow/red, looting yellow wrecks, accepting missions against (Empire) factions, etc etc already have warnings, but if not they can be easily added.

    tl;dr: help players overcome ignorance, not cater for it. Going by how often hisec people I know believe being in fleet permits CONCORD-free aggression, despite the clear warning to the contrary on fleet invite, some people just can't be helped.


    1. To be fair, I've also wondered if it wouldn't be better to slap a great big "contains non-consensual player interaction" label on the front of EVE. But perhaps this would dissuade some people from trying EVE, who would end up liking the game despite initially disliking (misunderstanding) this concept.

    2. I agree. What if this could all be answered with a single warning?

  4. Unfortunately, asking these questions of current eve players is pointless. They are hell bent on keeping the game from growing or improving. It's the same mentality that small town people have for modernization. They complain about change while simultaneously complaining about the problems that change will fix.

    1. That do does not mean they should not be asked. The attempt should always be made.

    2. EVE players don't want the game they spend their time and money on to improve and become more popular? Nonsense.

      It's an interesting analogy. I suspect that your idea of how to improve the game are mutually exclusive with mine, or even my enjoyment of EVE Online.

  5. Eve needs more consequences, not fewer. Real consequences that can't be easily undone with garbage mechanics like tagsforsec.

    Real consequences for being a gate/station camper, real consequences for playing the criminal that include things like loss of docking privileges and being chased on sight by effective police that aren't a joke.

    1. I think it's unfair to penalize new players who have no idea what ind of long-term damage they're doing to themselves.

      Also, if that new player sticks around long enough to decide that Eve is THE GAME for them, Then those are people I want to keep in the game. Why put up a miserable faction standing roadblock in front of them? Dire's comment below is a perfect illustration of why not to.

      Just because you're capable of running the hundreds of meaningless missions to make the repair doesn't mean that you should have to. It won't prove anything about your skill, it'll just waste months of game time when you could be doing something far more productive.

      One more thing (and this isn't directed at you, Moxnix)... This blog isn't Reddit, so why the incessant whining and fight-baiting in the comments? Nobody cares if you've decided to role play the bitterest most elite Eve veteran of them all Turamarth.

    2. Actually I wasn't talking about penalizing new players. I mean more to make things more difficult for the ones who make a choice to be the bad guy, to be a jerk. Gankers, griefers, tears harvesters who get their jollies out of pissing other off.

    3. When it comes to missions and things like that, I'd agree that running a bunch of missions for one faction shouldn't permanently wreck your chances of working for another.

      IOW, killing NPCs is one thing, griefing other players is another.

    4. 'Real consequences' sounds a lot like a euphemism for nerfing suicide ganking.

      Your idea would cripple the freedom of movement for every outlaw in the game. Is this intended? Is it such a problem that pirates can take shortcuts through high-sec? Is it a problem that a criminal like Sugar Kyle can dock up and manage high-sec market orders on her main?

      Just remember that the most that consequences in EVE can ever do is force someone to log an alt. The faction police don't give criminals enough rope to hang themselves with.

    5. You touch on a good point Anon. How far do we want these to go? Do we want to be able to fully burn down a character?

      I'm very curious as to all of these view points. Sometimes the smallest things cause the largest change.

    6. Wex where do you get "...the bitterest most elite Eve veteran of them all Turamarth"?? I love this game, I really do... I'm not bitter at all... I must admit I am somewhat taken aback... I had no intent to garner this kind of response to my comments...

      I am sorry you saw my opinions in that light...

    7. It wasn't just this comment, go back and read the last 20 or 30 you've left on this blog.

    8. Real consequences for playing the criminal should come with real choices. If you want to lock outlaws out of stations... Give them a way of establishing a secret base to operate out of just like NPC pirates that you fund un belts or missions presumably have.

  6. Having just recently completed a standings repair stint due to misspent Minmatar youth I think it might be helpful to give specificity to the discussion.

    Back in 2009 I was a Minmatar Hi-Sec mission monster paying no attention to faction standings. What care I? It’s a big universe and I’d no need to flit about the Amarr Empire. Besides, I’m Minmatar, they’d probably re-enslave me.

    To great extant this is still true as I remain in Minmatar space but come late 2014 I did run into a bit of a quandary. Based on location, I wanted to buddy up to Joint Harvesting (an Amarr corporation) only to discover that due to low faction standings earned 5 years ago via eager Minmatar mission running I would be limited to level one Joint Harvesting missions well-nigh forever.


    Though not particularly interested, I had to repair relations with the Amarr before I could seriously buddy up with Joint Harvesting. The required Amarr step before the Joint Harvesting step proved quite onerous. I got there. Actually I got there comparatively efficiently (even bought an Orca to facilitate undertaking the ‘Faction Standing Repair Plan’ With Social 5 all I had to do was run the 5 noob career arcs (45 individual missions) at the three career arc locations in Caldari space (135 missions) and then at the three career arc locations in Amarr space (another 135 missions) which finally, with the crucial help of Diplomacy 5, got me to slightly positive effective standing with the Amarr.

    Running 270 noob career arc missions over and over again was agonizing as hell and mind you I was astoundingly good at it having over 100,000 skill points. Now, at last, I get to begin buddying up to Joint Harvesting by grinding up that mission ladder (starting at lvl 1). Yah!

    I bring this up to point out how truly obscure some of this is; specifically the often harmful linkage between *interstellar NPC corps* and their faction origins. Using a real life example, it’s as if working for Toyota (a Japanese based corporation) could, if pursued too enthusiastically, get one kicked out of the United States. So the factory (NPC station) legally remains in country, but the employees (mishing capsuleers) are declared state enemies and booted out. Huh? This weird result didn’t happen to me as I was running Minimatar missions in Minimatar space back in 2009 but I *could* have wide eyed noob run Amarr missions in Minimatar space only to be kicked out of Minimatar space.

    Working for a legal company shouldn’t endanger one’s citizenship. It might annoy opposing companies and in a delicious bit of irony Joint Harvesting’s opponent is Native Fresh Food (my default NPC assignment).

    Follow that repair plan link. Then follow the links it references to actually undertake The Plan. I’m as complexity loving and grind tolerant as the next pilot. Probably more so but . . . oh my God!

    Is handing this type of onerous grind to players (new or old) who have no practical way of knowing that at some future date five years later they may want to buddy up to a specific NPC *corporation* (not faction mind you, corporation) enjoyable game design? I sure as hell didn’t enjoy it and absolutely nowhere was I informed that the NPC relationship decisions I was making then would nearly demoralize me five years later. This is a game. Charting a new course shouldn’t be demoralizing. Charting a new course should take work and adjustment but it shouldn’t be demoralizing.

    1. So, at no point did the idea that shooting ships and blowing them up from another faction, like the Amarr, might make them not like you? I am pretty sure that Toyota employees in the US don't go about shooting US citizens, blowing up army convoys and attacking US agents on the streets which is what a lot of the missions have you doing. Seriously? Also, you can do the sister's arc every 90 days for a +2 to any one faction without hurting others.

    2. Deth,

      I believe not being allowed in Amarr space makes it difficult to complete the Sister's Arc (been years since I've done it). Accordingly, they're no help to me in my current situation.

      And do pay attention, I didn't particularly want to cozy up to the Amarr, rather I wanted to cozy up to a single corporation - Joint Harvesting - and that was going to be well nigh impossible without first cozying up to the Amarr.

      Call me an idiot if you wish for failing to realize five years prior to the current date that my Minmatar friendly actions would, one day, impinge on my ability to function in Minmatar space.

      But this isn't really about not knowing what one is doing, rather it's about getting inexorably locked into a particular situation. It's a shame really since it means if your going to be a long term player with a wide open future there are significant parts of the game you best never, ever explore because once explored you practically *can't* move on to something when the mood strikes.

  7. @Turamarth: "we have very very few actual idiots, if any at all ingame" Have you ever looked at all the ALOD's?

    About the standings and consequences, when I started running high sec missions I did not realize what the consequences would be for faction standings.
    These days I don't do storyline missions anymore because the penalties are bigger as the reward. But the game keeps offering them as if they are somehow beneficial and good to do.

    And not realizing that shooting a faction might have consequences. Who knew those missions I did were against the real gallente/minmatar government and not some rogue agents? Why do pirate NPC stations allow docking by capsuleers who make their living killing those same pirates?

  8. I like to playing game. So a buy some material for playing game if you want to buy bail bondsman know details.


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