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A Post Incarna Child

Today's thought brought to you by the letter, "E".

A lot has been going down in the world of Eve Online. I'm not going to rehash the news of the last day. Instead, I listened to a lot of things said and looked for the common themes and threads that were coming out of them. And, upon doing all of that listening I came to a realization.

One thing that I have struggled with is the complaints about 'lack of content'. I have been told this, this week during talks. "So Sugar, Kronos is nice and all but when are we getting content?" Baffled, I blinked and tried to work out how they had come to the conclusion that there was not any content. It was not until I was having a discussion in my chatroom where I said:
[19:44:36] Sugar Kyle > i'm starting to interpret feature desire as 'bring back my newbie hood but with my current experience'
...that I made some jumps of logic and started to look at the complaints about lack of content a different way.

Eve Online is a game that has just celebrated its thirteenth birthday. There are players who have been playing Eve Online for the entire length. There are more who have been playing for extended periods of time. There is a significant population who has played the game for over five years.

Eve Online's gimmick is one server with no instancing. Everyone (baring China) is on Tranquility. They are the same people they have been for a long time (let us ignore character selling for now). That means, many of them have been in the same virtual world as the same person for that length of time.

Over the course of its lifespan, Eve Online has continued to grow structurally. New features have emerged. Gameplay has expanded and changed. Things have been added and very few things have been removed. The things that have been removed tend to be left as legacy items instead of deleted from the game. Players can still undock in the Thorax they flew in 2003 and it will function in the current environment due to Eve's nature of bringing the entire world forward.

After Incarna CCP promised to fix what is broken and stop releasing incomplete features that they did not touch again.

And I started after Incarna. I actually started right after Crucible was launched. And today, after listening to people discuss how Eve Development changed after Incarna and how that has brought forward no new content and two going on three years of changes I had a little bulb go off in my mind. I suddenly understood why I'm so puzzled by complaints about no content and frustration at the features.

I have never known Eve Online in any other state than its current one.

I have also never been as invested in one of my games, but my first MUD, as I am Eve Online. 

There are formative times in any change in our life. Be it a new school, a new job, a new activity, or even introduction to a new food where impressions are formed. It may just be that the reason I have such a hard time understanding the content that many veterans miss is because I was never around for the experience of having that content in the first place. The current state of Eve is the Eve that I know and have grown to love. While I want it to be a better, successful, healthy Eve I also don't know what it was like to have things like Sov dropped onto the lap of the player base.

For those veteran players out there who are waiting for another expansion to bring them the shock and awe that they remember from the time, before Crucible, the time after Crucible does not have any content. Not in the way that they defined and consumed content. While for me, it has plenty of content. Because I am a post Incarna child and I have known no other game of Eve.


  1. I've been thinking along similar lines lately, for personal reasons, not because of the stuff going on with CCP.

    Two thoughts:
    1. The stability in Content that EVE has enjoyed is based on horizontal expansion. We basically enjoy endgame content at all times and new content rarely goes obsolete. Contrast that with a game that does Vertical Expansion (WoW being the juggernaut here), where every expansion you get a kick in the teeth and a "gratz, the last 2 years were a waste, now level up again and re-earn all your gear. Go on ... get moving."

    To me, Horizontal Expansion is the biggest selling point of the game. I do not want to re-learn the game every 6 months or whatever; don't want my HAC or Marauder to be obsoleted in favor of "tier 14 raid lootz."

    2. YES PLEASE bring back my noobiehood. I most certainly want CCP to think about the ideas and feelings that made EVE feel big/huge/infinite when I first started. In other words: sell the product on fundamentals, not style points, and certainly not a HTFU mentality.

    EVE, as a product/program, has never been stronger. The content and refinement we enjoy today is miles ahead of the buggy, empty, confusing game we launched with in 2003. What people are chasing is the feeling of being amazed, which is okay as long as CCP understands that.

    1. 1. Excellent point. Having played both games, this is my opinion

      Eve goes too far in favor of long time players. New players can never really catch up, particularly on "skill" points (which ironically has absolutely nothing to do with actual playing skill). And no multiple characters does not make up for that because the long time player not can also have multiple characters too but he's had more time to "skill" all of them up. Too many new players get frustrated with this and quit playing.

      WoW on the other hand has been extremely successful doing exactly the opposite, catering to new players and Blizzard went too far in that direction too. Long time WoW players get tired of having to repeat the leveling / gearing up grind all over again... In a game that keeps get LESS, rather than MORE challenging. Marketing to new, more casual players worked extremely well for Blizzard for a while it but now they're having trouble retaining players. Growth from new players just isn't keeping up with the rate experienced players are leaving at anymore.

    2. I may have 150m SP, but as soon as I sit down in a particular ship, the vast majority of that SP becomes irrelevant. And furthermore, even if my skills are "perfect" for a ship, that's still a hard capped level and is absolutely something a player can catch up to.

      To put it another way, my advantage over someone who has been playing a year is a broader set of ships I can fly, not necessarily absolute power level with any given ship.

    3. As I'm sure you know it goes much further than just the ships you can fly. Leadership, Industry, Market, PI, etc., skills. The long time player can do more things on fewer characters.

      Even when talking about just ships a lot of support skills a 50m SP player like me has at IV a 150m SP player probably has at V. All those little 5% more of this and 5% more of that here and there add up to a significant advantage in the end.

      In fact according to Jester it takes about 50m SP just to get all the core support skills (nav, tank, etc.) he says are necessary. That's 2 years of training right there and doesn't even include any spaceship command or dps skills, far less industry, trade etc.

    4. Well, there are quite a few skills that are shared across all ships. These generalist skills are a needless divide between old and new players. The refrain of specializing would ring truer if fewer skills were generalist skills. Fitting skills are the most glaring example, and doubly so because of the inverted meta system.

  2. I started laying Eve in late 2010 and endured the Incarna debacle. Incarna was one of those events that shattered my previous perception of the game and my first eye opening into what can be expressed as :CCP:. So I started digging into the history of Eve at that point which promptly started filling in the holes of "why isn't x feature finished/fixed?".

    I've come to the conclusion that the last few years has been CCP desperately trying to unfuck all their half assed implementations of features. Given finite funding and manpower I think it's the most sensible decision.

    Content in this game, at least in my perception of it, has always been the people. Shiny 'features', even half assed ones, are new tools and methods of interacting with other people. Some of those tools have been rotting in half finished state (see FW, which I think is in a better position than pre-iteration. But as the recent cloaking change shows, still has room for improvement.

    Quite frankly, I'm inclined to dismiss cries of "we want more features!" As indicative of a posters inability to enjoy the game in its current (however malformed) state, something that new "features" will simply be another hit of cocaine to the junkie.

    1. This view point is entirely correct ... the biggest problem it generates however is that when the game reaches a point where the "meta" or content driven by the players only has the same groups day after day interacting with each other and no new blood then you really do reach a point of no "fresh" content. This has been either more or less of a problem with null over different periods and is evident very clearly in the data on 90% loss of new players that don't get out of highsec or interact with others.

  3. Perceptive post Sugar Kyle.

    It’s easy to want impossible things but you can’t turn back the clock, you can’t unwind the past. One thing people forget when they say they want that newbie feel again is that they themselves are different people then they were then. When you combine the generally older age of eve players with the now 10+ years Eve itself has existed you find a sizable group of players that barely resemble who they once were (formerly naive high school students well into college, formerly naive college students well into post graduate studies, formerly na├»ve post graduate students well into career and family . . .).

    Amazingly, CCP itself has been making much the same mistake so many Eve players do - trying to recapture adolescence. Sorry kiddo. The world doesn’t work that way. The inexorable passage of time demands a little reorientation. Sooner or later CCP may have to accept that they’re probably going to produce only one mind blowingly awesome virtual universe.

    I myself look forward to becoming a doddering old vet wrangling up a bright young whippersnapper or two to help me up and down the Harpa staircase at future Fanfests. I hope CCP obliges me by cherishing the gem they already have.


  4. Sugar, I'm another. To me all expansions have been what they currently are: ship rebalance, a few modified features, some micro new stuff. I think that's fine. The game I started playing 2 years ago is a good game.

    1. It is. It can be a better game. It will become a better game. But, for those who used to have major ground shaking features added will the slow arc of improvement be enough?

  5. That is an incredibly insightful post.

    I guess the next new content feature is really waiting till the player built stargates show up and what ever comes with them.

    Hopefully the game can hold on till we get to that point. Should only be a year or two. Then the next Era of EVE will begin and we will see where it goes from there.

    I'm still pretty happy with seeing all these legacy systems get fixed. And I really have no idea how else they could have done it. Its not like they could have expected the player base to stick around for them to build EVE over from the ground up and then just transfer over the database one day.

  6. I an not an old player yet I remember EVE before the change from Jesus Features to Interations and Fixes...

    Search "Jesus Features" in the Dev Blogs, blogs and forums... this is, for me, what so many are complaining about, what they mean by 'content'.

    Apocrypha with Wormholes was a Jesus Feature. I joined in Nov '10 and Incursion dropped very shorty after bringing Incursions and then Incarna brought... well, should have brought us WiS only CCP gave us new avatars with not 'place' to use them... IE no 'content'.

    This is what people are misising... they want CCP to give them The Next Big Thing... and TBH, for me... I feel CCP should consider some type of Jesus Feature say, once a year with the rest of the patchspansions as they are designed now. And the Next Big Thing should be only rolled out when it is READY... but something BIG should be planned for and worked in.

    As I see it the current Next Big Thing is the PBSG (Player Built Star Gates)... but a 2 or more years wait for something really big is simply too long and constant nothing but little things, even damn good little things... is also simply not gonna be enough either.

    Though I gotta admit I do feel the new way they are planing on doing the patchspansions is gonna be a better and more manageable way to handle rolling out new fixes, iterations, and features.

    1. I think this is also where marketing and development start to slam into each other. In video games anything can be done. We don't want to hear about the practical and pragmatic we want wild and wonderful things. It makes it hard to manage expectations and reality.

    2. Do pardon me TurAmarth but I’m discovering you make a great foil. Before I launch into critique I’d like to quote your comment on Nozy’s Blog about shrinking subscription numbers:

      TurAmarth ElRandirJune 6, 2014 at 10:06 AM
      Huh... may I ask, if EVE broke the mold in [uninterrupted] growth, is it not possible, is it just barely possible... that it could break a few other molds, some no other games have not yet done...

      I believe that if CCP can get their collective executive heads out of their group executive anus... well, they might just be the first comeback kid MMO on the block too.

      Now wouldn't THAT be something?


      I quote you because 1) It’s a really good comment and 2) I wonder if comeback kid work is already well underway and we sorta bitter vets just aren’t seeing it.

      One amazing thing about Sugar’s post is the observation that she, being a player unfamiliar with CCP attempting to deliver Jesus Features, remains entirely comfortable with the lack of them. Perhaps there is a bigger market for an increasingly polished but not horizontally expanding gem than we think.

      Though I’m about to read a lot of tea-leaves here, I’m beginning to suspect CCP is doubling down on the limited new content path by eliminating a bunch of their publishing team (publishing being one version of new content). If I’m reading leaf correctly, it appears as if CCP is attempting to . . . fade into the background. Perhaps they really are working towards producing a sandbox only. As if to say, as much as technically possible, “We’re CCP, your vehicle to space fame. That’s all we do. Good luck.”

      If I’m sniffing out a genuine direction – "watch us disappear" – a truly revolutionary Jesus Feature *is* underway. Now THAT would be something. I hope it works.


    3. From my perspective .. we have a lot of changes coming our way in very short order. I would call the industry revamp a huge chunk of content that will require a lot of time and effort.

      Another huge content deliverable coming to us all before stargates .. bada boom .. SOV revamp.

      For me there is plenty to chew on coming soon. I have two new friends that started the game recently and LOVE it.

  7. I've had a few people moaning about lack of content in the last few "expansions". As I understand it they mean content as 'something new to do' as opposed to new stuff to do the same old things with.

    Empyrean Age brought us faction war, Apocrypha brought us wormholes, Taranis brought us PI.

    I think this is what a lot of people are asking for.

    1. Aye. Which is why, like Tier3/Attack battlecruisers these things have always been to Post incarna Children.

  8. In broad terms, "Content" is something that would draw a non-player to the game. Content is the "reward" part of "action -> reward".

    A non-player, by definition, is not playing the game, and thus the existing content is not appealing to him. Whatever can draw him in, hasn't been created yet, it's inexistant. Inexistant content it's the "no reward" part in "no reward -> no action".

    Now read the Kronos with non-player eyes:

    Section one, "Ship Balancing"

    Irrelevant. Ships I don't fly, are being rebalanced.

    Section two, "Exploration"

    Some irrelevant stuff, minus this new content:

    Contested Guristas Covert Research Facility has been added to High and Low security space.
    Besieged Covert Research Facility has been added to Low security space. (These will be unlocked once players have completed the Contested Guristas Covert Research Facility challenge)
    Anomalies full of Hedbergite, Hemorphite, Jaspet, and in rare cases Arkonor and Bistot have begun to appear throughout low security space.

    Section three, "Graphics": Irrelevant, I'm not playing the game so why bother with how it looks?

    Implants: irrelevant, what are implants?

    Market: irrelevant.

    Modules: irrelevant, what are modules?

    Drones: irrelevant, what are drones?


    Mostly irrelevant, minus this new content:

    A new store has been added, The New Eden Store

    Missions & NPCs: irrelevant, it's a single fix to some obscure stuff.

    Factional Warfare: irrelevant, changes to... what is Factional Warfare?

    Science & Industry: irrelevant, some stuff is being renamed, seriously.


    Some irrelevant stuff, but there are new spaceships in this spaceships game. That's good, 500+ spaceship types are not enough (my apologies as this is a bittervet jab... let's keep with non-player eyes)

    Added new pirate faction: Mordu's Legion (...)
    The new Prospect Expedition Frigate has been introduced (...)

    Skills: Irrelevant, not playing the game.

    Structures & Deployables: Irrelevant, not playing the game. What's this stuff, anyways?

    User Interface: Irrelevant, I'm not using it.

    Fixes: Irrelevant; broken stuff that doesn't affects me, is being fixed.

    Still with me?

    After Kronos, the reason why someone didn't played EVE before but should play it now it's because of a few new ships, a few new exploration content, and a new MT store. It turns that most of the patch it's fanservice and quality of life fixes for existing players.

    Selling your game to your buyers it's nice and necessary, of course, but then, in itself it serves nothing to the non-buyers and to former buyers who don't get enough fanservice: Adding a lowslot to my Nightmare it's not worth 15 bucks a month...

    This is the lack of content that everyone talks about. I will not bother you with my bittervet (hiseccer casual PvEr and miner) view. But ask yourself, and ask the CSM, and ask CCP:

    Why should a non-player start playing EVE now if he didn't did before the last patch?

    1. Why would wormholes, Incursions or FW make non-player start playing any more than a set of new ships would?

      All of them fix a blind spot EVE had before they were released. Mystery of exploration, more difficult and engaging PVE and easy access low level PVP with rewards respectively. All of them exciting only to a player that has noticed these blind spots.

      The reason people are not playing EVE is not that there isn't anything that sparks their interest in the first place. There is 10 times more people playing for a month compared to the number of people who are engaging in a plurality of activities EVE offers. They are not playing because they are not finding their way to the content that would keep then engaged for more than it takes to level the raven.

      There is potential in even more player controlled universe in general and the stargates in particular to generate a little bit of new interest in the game, but it doesn't help much in the long term if the people stop playing way before they have any change on participating on stargate building.

    2. "Why would wormholes, Incursions or FW make non-player start playing any more than a set of new ships would?"

      Because they're new, which means that a potential player hasn't dismissed them along with whatever he knows of EVE. EVE with a restated freighter is the same bloody game. EVE with new space is a different game, potentially.

      As for finding the way to the "right" content, it is way smarter to ensure that the right content will find your customers, than wish and pray for the opposite. Yet currently, EVE relies on a lot of wishful thinking.

      Wishfully, players will try PvP... wishfully, they will learn and survive... wishfully, they will meet the right corporations... wishfully, they will avoid the babykillers... wishfully, they will join the right nullsec alliance... wishfully, they will not be awoxed, corp stolen or button-dismantled... Wishfully, yes, they may become the 20% who stumbles upon the right, avoid the 80% of terrible subcription-killer content content and succeed.

      Now, let's say you're an investor, and a guy comes to you with a plan to develop a product in such a way that 80% of the customers are certain to stop using it because the designer can't be arsed to retain them. But hey, the paltry 20% who survive will be elite customers because... They Get It Right.

      Frankly, dismissing 80% of your customers as guys who "just level their Ravens" is stupidly arrogant when you don't give them any chance to do anything else.

      FAI, why EVE Online is a place were Warren Buffet's only way to influence the world is to kill Elon Musk with his own hands -and those of a few thousand grunts? Where's the political intrigue, the manipulation of the State by Empyreans? Where is corruption of the Law and Justice? Why are NPCs meaningless, rather than let them live as puppets of the players engagin in PvP by other means?

      It is the design of the game what renders NPC interaction a meaningless activity. It is CCP who prefers to put to waste 80% of their customers rather than give them tools to enjoy EVE their way.

      But hey, they surely wish that any player will become a part of the 20% out of semi-random, mostly uninformed choices.

    3. "What do you enjoy about the game right now?" The answer to that is your answer to a potential new player.

      Eve in particular sells itself as the long game. That 80% that either quits or levels up their raven and then quits after a few months is inherently worth less than a customer that stays subscribed and quite likely acquires an alt account or two along the way and is likely to stay subscribed for much, much longer.

      Can those 80% be catered to in some way to squeeze a couple more months of subscription out of? Sure, and I suspect they still wouldn't stick around or try to get involved with the rest of the game. Given a limited set of resources and time, which group is going to pay off more in the long run? Nevermind the aspect of Eve having reached a saturation point of "it's reached all the potential customers it can, those that enjoy it have stayed or temporarily left and likely return, the rest have tried it and said that Eve isn't for them and nothing is going to get those people to stay".

    4. And why did I spend most of 7 years subscribbed, then? I love the ASSumption that neither CCP nor "core" players need or want those 80%...

      CCP has never tried to take those guys seriously. Why do they play EVE, if every other MMO around is better at "leveling up", then? Why don't they PvP, or only perform PvP as a secondary activity? It's not just PvE, also traders and industrialists, they only play to... what? Earn ISK? Why there are no meaningful mechanics so they can build and influence their environment? Why can't a influential lobby "conquer" a NPC system? As I said, EVE's only PvP is gross to the point of billonaires impaling each other with swords...

      Empire dwellers are never questioned, never asked, never taken into account, never given a chance. They are dismissed on moral grounds: they must be weakling and uncompromising... they can't possibly have limited time, or a family, or whatever prevents a person from devoting 3 hours to look for a "gf", or spend 6 hours in a CTA, or whatever time-comsuming, attention-absorbing activity is involved in being a "good player".

    5. Thank you Angry Onions. I appreciate you taking the time to give me that run down of how you see this.

      How would you like the CSM to approach empire dwellers, better? For instance I may be 'low sec' but I have a lot of people who are very much high sec oriented that sit and talk to me and share their view of the game. If you look at things I've written and said I avoid the easy route of 'nerf' high sec nor do I believe that everyone should be pushed to other parts of the game.

      And we have Mike, our casual high sec player but no, we don't have a pure high sec 'bear' on the CSM. So, help me reach out to what or who you think needs the reach out.

    6. Well, thanks for your invitation. I've been thinking for a few days with no exact answers coming to my mind, as I don't know what does CCP know, what they *think* that they know, and what they *can* know. I can see how they usually get hisec things wrong, but why? Maybe it's information bias?

      Let me explain a couple of cases:

      You mention Mike. It turns that "our" CSM representative does PvE in PvP fits, which is something nobody else but him does. But he speaks to CCP and when some CCP dev does something really stupid like suggesting that PvE fits should be removed and PvErs should be forced to use PvP fits to fight NPCs, there goes our hero Mike and agrees because that's what he does... but he's a freak in doing so. He's the absolute last person CCP should ask about the idea, because he is not going to unsub when multi-billion PvE fleets are rendered unusable overnight as "CCP knows better" but can't be arsed to question why would someone collection pirate BS, Marauders and other extremely expensive PvE Hardware. (Expensive both in time and devotion... have you ever leveled BS to V for 3 factions?)

      This is a part of a larger trend, in which CCP *apparently* lets niche features be redesigned by people who DO NOT use them.

      Second instance: hisec POCOs. Unless the goal was to burn out people using PI as a hobby, force sunb of those doing it as their priem activity and let big alliances fatten their wallets with no risk thx to agreements, they failed in every sense. They killed a niche (casual hisec PI) for no good. But then who designed hisec POCOs? People who figured that other people doing hisec PI would engage in PvP if they just had a reason to. The very idea that people doing hisec PI was doing so to NOT DO PvP didn't entered their minds. But then, what happens if you are a hisec PIer? You don't belong in CSM, nor vote, maybe don't even know it exists. You barely interact with anyone, so nobody knows what you're up to until you unsub because CCP shut down your niche for no good.

      Hisec is full of niches, some are terrible, other are more or less enjoyable, but them all have a reason to exist as people pays for them. Third and last instance: Crius is going to kill the casual hisec industrialist who logs in for 30 minutes, sets his indi stuff and goes back to somethign else. Without that hobby some veterans will burn out faster, and pure niche dwellers will unsub... to what gain? Create a nullsec industry niche for 10% of the 10% of the already subscribbed and extremely unlikely to unsubscribe player base?

      Maybe CCP should engage players actively. Pick them from their server behavior and demographic prevalence, then ready a few GMs to convo them and learn from them. Why they play? What content they use and how? What would they like? If they're freaks who should be playing WoW, well at least CCP would know that for sure. But maybe CCP would suffer a shock to find out WHY people pays them money, and what have they been doing for years to their less loyal but much more numerous hisec customers.

      "They just level up their Ravens", huh. Maybe CCP doesn't let them do anything else because of PvP-only tools. Maybe they wouldn't do if allowed. Or maybe they would resub in hordes if they could use their PvE expertise for something worthy of EVE. Who knows?

  9. I've been in the game since beta, so I've seen all the expansions. After each one I was very eager to get in the game and check out all the new features and content. Kronos was the same way with one exception: After I was logged in for 2 hours I was already bored.

    Perhaps my expectations were too high, but I did read the patch notes and had a good idea what was coming. After fitting a few ships to check out the rebalancing and doing a few fights, I couldn't come up with much else to do. So I just ended up doing the same thing I've been doing for months, going on roams in null using the same ships and fleet comps looking for fights. We did get to kill a new mordus legion ship which was interesting but other then that is was just the same old thing.

    I realize the patch is missing most of the industry changes which should give more content and make things more interesting if thats what your into, but I can't help but feel let down.

    1. Thank you for sharing your view point of things. Do you think that some of it is because you do roams in null sec which was not as impacted by this expansion?

    2. Yes that definitely is part of it, but I have multiple accounts and play a variety of content from null sec, low sec pirating to manu/trading.

      I look forward to expansions because they force change on the players, and that change typically brings new interesting gameplay options. The ship rebalancing does this a little bit, but most of the changes were small tweaks and nothing that game changing. (carrier drone changes to some extent. Blood getting the old NOS mechanic back was probably the most interesting for me personally.)

  10. For me there are tons of little things, even big little things, that can make current game-play mechanics so much better, more interactive, etc. New Jesus features would not add to my game-style at all.

    1. That is one of the potential pitfalls of a Jesus Feature. Let's say that tomorrow they redid Sov. And it was everything that people ever asked for. It would have no personal meaning to me and my own because we don't do Sov and only casually do null. But, Sov has to be done and would be this perfect Jesus feature.

      Rarely, will they ever cover everyone, even when its something ultimately new.

      But! Let us not wallow in the what may be :)

  11. I think it's mostly the same in delivery. The difference is in the promises and expectations. For example the hacking mini game was added as just a minor bit, nobody expected it to be some amazing new thing. By comparison the trailer for tyranus asked "what kind of ruler will you be" (to your colony citizens.) Then when the feature came out I 2 as disappointed as it did not leave me feeling like a planetary ruler. I am not sure how a despot would be different from a benevolent leader in pi terms but that matters not, the trailer set an expectation that 2 as not met and is still remembered years later. Incarnation was much the same, on patch day we were excited and then we saw the product. Actions are the same but they seemed to learn to not hype things that won't be apppreciated (like the hacking game which was fine as a minor feature but would have cratered if we were expecting more.)


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Taboo Questions

Let us talk contentious things. What about high sec? When will CCP pay attention to high sec and those that cannot spend their time in dangerous space?  This is somewhat how the day started, sparked by a question from an anonymous poster. Speaking about high sec, in general, is one of the hardest things to do. The amount of emotion wrapped around the topic is staggering. There are people who want to stay in high sec and nothing will make them leave. There are people who want no one to stay in high sec and wish to cripple everything about it. There are people in between, but the two extremes are large and emotional in discussion. My belief is simple. If a player wishes to live in high sec, I do not believe that anything will make them leave that is not their own curiosity. I do not believe that we can beat people out of high sec or destroy it until they go to other areas of space. Sometimes, I think we forget that every player has the option to not log back in. We want them to log


Halycon said it quite well in a comment he left about the skill point trading proposal for skill point changes. He is conflicted in many different ways. So am I. Somedays, I don't want to be open minded. I do not want to see other points of view. I want to not like things and not feel good about them and it be okay. That is something that is denied me for now. I've stated my opinion about the first round of proposals to trade skills. I don't like them. That isn't good enough. I have to answer why. Others do not like it as well. I cannot escape over to their side and be unhappy with them. I am dragged away and challenged about my distaste.  Some of the people I like most think the change is good. Other's think it has little meaning. They want to know why I don't like it. When this was proposed at the CSM summit, I swiveled my chair and asked if they realized that they were undoing the basic structure that characters and game progression worked under. They said th