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CSM9: Day 21

Things have moved at a frantic pace. Kronos is flowing forward and we are settling into our term a bit. A little of the shock has started to wear off to be replaced by enormous stacks of things that we as individual members would like to bring forward. This list increases by the day as people get in contact with us and bring good ideas to the table.

I was able to make two of the meet and greets and one of the stakeholder meetings this week. Next week I should be able to make all of the meetings except the one on Tuesday. Learning who to go for is a very important part of the job. I can take things to any developer but taking them to the correct developer is how I will get results.

We’re starting to post more on the internal forums as we ramp up. We’re getting our direct feedback/feed to channels together and in general Leeloo is a Genie I have decided who appears the moment we have a need. There is a certain amount of comfort to be gained that I envy in those who were here last year. They are well past this point. However, their experience is extremely helpful.

Which leads into the stuff announced this week.

These are being refined still. The feedback has been tremendous and appreciated. It has been read and processed and used to improve and refine this into the useful tool that we want it to be. There are now even more options for them. The redundancy issues have been discussed on the forum thread as well.

Faction Warfare Plex Changes
The Faction Warfare site changes are on SiSi. Please test these and give feedback.

Freighter and Jump Freighter re-rebalance
Whew. This went from rigs to low slots during a lot of discussion and a building threadnought. In looking at this the question was not just customization but flexibility in customization. Rigs created customization but not flexibility. I, for instance, was not going to rig for cargo. Agility and tank were too important to me. While people often have many haulers having many freighters is another thing altogether.

The switch to low slots settled down many of the recurring questions and discomforts that the rig solution had. Some people wanted to know why even make the jump? Why not start there? Well, until we went through the process rigs made sense. Creating something that worked turned out not to be what was wanted. This is where feedback is valuable. This is where the familiarity of the past CSMs came into play. I learned a lot during this process as everyone (CSM/CCP/Good posters) worked for a better result.

I'm giving mad props to mynnna and Steve for being able to create spreadsheets of information out of thin air. Its damn frightening but incredibly useful when we are working over things. But I think they blink and wiggle their nose and poof. Kinda creepy. Good creepy. :P

New low grade pirate implants
I was hoping for my suggested name of bargain-grade implants but I’ll have to be happy with the new low grade. Previous low grade implants are now mid grade. Previous named, but not graded implants, are now high grade. The low grade are new with a smaller bonus. I liked these a lot because I felt they gave an entry level implant option to people who didn’t want to drop half a bil on a low grade set for their head. I had to bite my tongue on this one because I was very excited about it. I hope that it will provide a super nice entry level to fancy implants.

Mordu’s Legion
Coming to a low sec belt near you, flat black skillet battleships, pointy, paper cut inducing cruisers, and little black frigates that are perfect for the first date. These ships excite everyone around me. I will admit that I don’t have missile skills so I won’t be flying one anytime soon.

Medium Microjump Drives
Not on ABCs (Attack Battle Cruisers). This means no 100k jumping sniper fleets of attack battlecruisers.

Thank you to the people taking the time to make good posts, with complete thoughts and reasons for why you do or do not like things. We are reading. CCP is reading. And a lot of productive stuff is coming out of these feedback threads.

There are unfun parts. I learned how painful it is to not be able to tell anyone about a change. I had someone reach out to me and offer me hyperspatial velocity rigs after the Fanfest announcement. We discussed what rigs I’d want for my JF. And, when the revamped low slot discussion started, I couldn't say to them, “yeah I changed my mind.” And it sucked. It sucked a lot. And yes I signed up for it but that doesn't make it pleasant.

We may ask a question but we may not be able to give the answer given. Recently, with the freighter changes we have been accused of not communicating. It is easy for me to say, “What?” But, I’m coming to understand that people really would like a blow by blow update on what is going on. I can't do that. We have to give after the fact summaries. That is the nature of the beast. On every thread every member could chime in and say, “We are aware” or “we are working on it” but I think our over all forum presence has been steady with Mike and Steve leading the pack. Mynnna and Corbexx are also active and the rest of us wander in as we will. I’ve tried to post more on the forums. And when I do, I won't always agree.

CSM Outreach

I decided on June 8th for my Eve Uni chat. I am going to run two sessions and see how that goes. The purpose is to cover time zones to some reasonable extent. I have to write a summary about what it is. It is a meet and greet of me to people for the most part. I really don’t know what to write but I need to get that to Neville. I also pushed it back a week because I got the opportunity to go to Miami this week. I’ll be coming home on the 1st and didn't want to try to mix travel and talking.

I’ve never been a big chat on coms kind of person. I’m working at visiting people and meeting with them. I’m just not one to drop on other peoples coms without planning. I’m trying to be available and listen.

Steve is working on and turning it into a place with features. Nosy Gamer started CSM Wire. Being followed by stuff like this is kind of weird. Seeing myself quoted makes me stop and blink.

Some ideas from the week that I’d love feedback on:
  • Asked on twitter by Ali: “What if characters had flat attributes & no remaps, but everything else was as-is? Better? Worse?”
  • Faction Warfare plexes with no sec hits? (I’ve seen this before as a suggestion and its one I like)
  • Also, Faction Warfare plexes with more restrictions? T2 restrictions? T3 restrictions?
  • Taxes on mining? Yes? No? How?
  • Should we have a make mynnna have his name changed to one with a capital M campaign? I have to keep going back and editing out the capital M.


  1. FW Plexes: No to more restrictions, it just balkanizes the pvp. No sec status loss inside would be nice I guess.
    Taxes on mining: No opinion
    No remaps: There is a good tradeoff between instant gratification and maximum SP training. I would keep it as is, but allow new players an extra remap and the end of the trial period.
    MMJD: We do not need more ways to "press button and end fight."

  2. Before being able to comment on Ali's question, I'd need to know what the goal is. else I can see the change being another freighter rig thingie.

    Mining is already taxed in null, with the station owner setting the rate. In fact, mining is already taxed everywhere but POSes, it's just that NPCs get the tax, unless you have standing sufficient for no taxes. It certainly would make things more fair for those corps that have miners as well as mission runners - at least the miners would have to pay the same rate as the mission runners. But I can see a problem if corps are allowed to tax miners in addition to the current facility owner tax - it would nerf mining income far too much and drive miners away.

    If the goal is to give corps more income streams and/or make the non-mission runners share the pain/create a new isk sink, then get rid of the facility tax completely. I can also see an argument for shifting mining (i.e. reprocessing) costs to a system similar to industry slots, but with the coming changes, that too, would make mining far less attractive. It would also swing the pendulum from under-taxing miners (compared to mission runners) to over-taxing miners.

  3. -Flat attributes & no remaps, but everything else was as-is?
    Worse. I vastly prefer the complexity we have to almost any nerfing... always remember, "One man's Useless Complexity is another man's Fascinating Intricacy."

    Suggestion - noobs start with best (no I dunt has numbers) mapping for the general all-over-the-place L1 to L3 learning of all-the-things (most EVE born) noobs usually do...) and have them also born with a basic set of noob training 'plants... Mebbe something new, say +2s and a good (set of tooltips?) explanation of what they are and why you have em.

    Reasoning - I stayed away from 'plants until I was almost 2 years inagame... all I ever heard about em was how much the really worthwhile sets cost and that they were brain rigs... die and lose em... just din't seem worth it to me. Now if I had started with a set already in my head and been shown how they helped training... I would have had a very different take on em.

    -Faction Warfare plexes with no sec hits & Faction Warfare plexes with more restrictions? T2 restrictions? T3 restrictions?

    Dunt to faction plexes and such... so Meh.

    -Taxes on mining? Yes? No? How?
    Hmmm... don't they already take a hit on refining? Or are you talking about direct ore sales? And taxes to NPC's or for corp?

    -If to NPCs... Why?
    -If to Corp, hmmm... I can see a rational as mishes, bounties, etc. can get taxed but mining etc. doesn't. As for how... Corp setting that kicks back the set corp rate at point of sale?

    -Should we have a make mynnna have his name changed to one with a capital M campaign? I have to keep going back and editing out the capital M.

    Uhh... seriously? Just stop fixing it and let him worry about why his parents named him funny... =]

  4. I'm all for "no remaps". And even one step further - no attribute implants. But looking at the remap only:
    Remaps are remnence of time when player created char by distributing points. Later they've removed it and introduced a flat new char, because players dont know what attributes does when creating char. Its confusing and even today its not very well explained imho. Instead they gave one remap per year which later evolved into extra 3 for starting chars.

    The premise is that new player will experiment with attributes and make conscious choice for them.

    The truth is this creates a blockade for players. They often don't want to loose precious training time so the after minmaxing two attributes they don't want to skill anything that is not for those attributes.

    Remaps are supposed to add gameplay choices but instead they often take that choice away, by telling you "if you train skill x to fly a ship y you will loose precious training time, train z instead ang get back to x in a year"

  5. Attributes I'll back anything CCP comes up with that helps newbies, the faster they can compete the better. Frankly just make remaps free and not something special imho.

    FW plexes, not sure about no sec loss, feels weird to me that shooting a neutral would have no consequences anywhere outside of 0.0. No more restrictions on sizes, like Michael said it just balkanizes the PvP. Allow combat battlecruisers into mediums maybe? Or make some gated larges (suspect that'll just end up being smartbomb shenanigans though)?

    I don't know about mining.

  6. 1). Not a new idea. First I'd heard of it was during Incarnagate -> perpetuum's similarity to Eve. I think the idea has some merit, the attribute system seems more like needless complexity rather than complexity with depth.

    2). vOv. I don't believe either/or matters all that much. This perhaps ties in closer with the idea of lowsec capping at -2 unless podding.

    3). Variety is good. I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Minimum ship size requirements on the other hand, might make for more interesting playgrounds.

    4). Mining taxes, like other taxable income sources is, eh, debatable. The crux of the issue is if "yes, mining should be taxed", the reply of "ok, how?" raises more headaches than its worth, ergo I'm fine with no direct mining tax.

    5). He's a big boy, he can handle it.

    MMJD: Kiters, already in a strong position of "if I'm in no danger of being hard tackled, I'm good". Brawler fits fucked by one LML, dual damp condor. I'm fine with more options. Kiting already has disengagement options where brawling does not.

  7. FW Plexes suck the fun out of lowsec either way.

    I just ignore them, because so much is lost that otherwise makes lowsec encounters interesting. The guy inside will always know where the enemy is coming from and can set up accordingly. We're in bloody space and I can only approach my target from one direction, landing on one spot. And I can't even get in there without breaking cloak because someday you suddenly had to approach closer than 2000m to use the jumpgate when cloaked.

    Can't help feeling like an idiot trying to catch anything in a FW or jumping into someone prepared to fight. So I stopped.

    Less restrictions, not more.

    And yeah MMJD for the glorious kiting master race is also a bit meh.

  8. LOL... Welcome to the World Where You Can't Please Everyone... or Anyone.

    You will find as you go thru this SCM things you have taken on that ANYTHING you ask will have people who very aggressively support "X" and people who just as aggressively disapprove of "X"... and that's not counting the Legions of Trolls and the Tinhat Brigades...

    Good Luck Sugar! =]

  9. As a somewhat new player (~18months) I really hate remapping. Because even now, I rarely know more than a month or two in advance what I will train and those plans change frequently as I learn more about the game or decide to try something new. It is a very frustrating mechanic, because it constantly makes you feel you are doing something wrong with very long term consequences.

    On the other hand, if they simply removed remapping without increasing each attribute by 6 or 7 points to compensate, it would be a gigantic nerf to training times which I would hate even more.

  10. Flat attributes with no remaps would be great -- either that or more frequent remaps (once a month or once every 3 months). Alternatively, you could have a system where the price goes up each time you remap but there's a built-in decay so that if you only remap once a year it's free.

    The current system is great if you've been playing for a few years, but for a new player who has to skill up in a variety of attributes, it feels less like a strategic choice and more like a burden. You feel somewhat rushed into figuring out what it is you want to do in the game so you can remap to the right attributes, but then if you change your mind you feel stupid training lots of perception/willpower skills when you remapped to int/memory to start.


    T2/3 restrictions for faction would be good I think. I assume the idea behind FW was to give new/PvE players an entry path to PvP. If their first experience is fighting characters with ships that will take them 3 months to skill into, I don't see how that would seem encouraging.

    Not allowing bigger ships while still letting T2/3 ships enter seems counter intuitive. You would think the idea there was to level the playing field but in fact it does the opposite.


    I'd need to know more about the reasons behind a mining tax to comment, but my initial feeling is no. Taxes just make the game feel more grindey for new players. I haven't met a lot of people who went and joined a corp simply because the NPC corp had a 10% tax rate. People join corps to play with others, the tax difference is just a perk and not a deciding factor (at least that's my impression).

  11. Thank you for all the fantastic feedback to my questions everyone. This is a lot of really great feedback. I appreciate it.

    1. Just had an idea... Allow players to remap as often... as they are willing to pay for it.

      IE remaps triggered by changing implants. Yes, it would cost, so offer several sets of new player affordable lower cost plants. Mebbe have them as rewards or definite drops in repeatable mishes.

      1 or 2% low cost plants that players would have to spend ISK on, or work for, but low enough that pulling and refitting a new set would be affordable and doing so would allow a remap.

      And yes, if an older player wanted to kick off a remap, he could pull his current set and replace em... if he wanted to go spend the ISK.

      Basically, pay for remaps.

    2. Balance via ISK is a poor idea for this. It still benefits veterans way more then newbies (the space rich are mostly vets after all). And newbies actually are likely to want to remap more often (I mean anything I train takes weeks anyway).

    3. Huh... Kaeda, ...but [priced] low enough that pulling and refitting a new set would be affordable... you did read that right? The point is to have sets drop either free, IE acquired via playing, PvE, and have them drop at a rate that ensures low cost... Noob friendly cost.

      And I don't know about you, but a lot of the guys I know (older players) aren't gonna rip out a set of 4s or better a named set every week. And you know what, if yer space rich enough to afford to rip out Slaves for a remap... you just go right on there Major Tom...

      The point is to give us a mechanic to make the number of remaps that are need when yer new and in a way that makes sense... and yes, older players can use it too... TBH I never understood the logic for the limitation on remaps.


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