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The Neglect of PvE and Low Sec

The side effect of not undocking due to a somewhat laggy hotel internet connection and a lack of a headset to join in on fleets is that I can write a blog post or two a day instead. There is a lot that is bubbling up from Fanfest.

Vov and Detta have been having these intense, technical discussions about tags 4 sec and their potential usefulness. I'm the simple minded one that finally said, "We know nothing about their spawn rates you are just making guesses." This is probably why they are good at intense technical game mechanics and I am not. The perception of a min/maxer is not one that I can or do automatically understand. Optimization for the sake of optimization rarely appeals to me.

The discussion dove into what makes something worth doing in different types of space. PvE in low sec is not much better then PvE in high sec. While CCP may not be walking along the path of inherent steps of space, Low Sec is more dangerous then high sec. Currently, low sec, outside of Faction Warfare does not have a payout that makes it better then high sec and Vov cannot figure out why.

Nor can I other then the fact that hte equations are antiquidated and no one has touched them because PvE is a mostly neglected category  At some point in the somewhat recent pass, I complained that PvE has been allowed to stagnate. I do not mean the changes such as improving the AI (it is better, I guess technically but I won't say I have more fun because of it) which was very recent and one thing. I mean that PvE content should be added with each expansion.

When I say PvE content should be added I don't mean new content requiring new code. I mean new missions and new sites and new DED complexes with the exact same mechanics should be added. The mission text should change. The room should be different. The spawns should be shaken up. It would be something that would have to be mapped and added to the massive bank of 'how to do missions by the numbers' that the player base has created. It would stop or at least decrease the chances of someone getting the same mission four times in a row and create variety the first few times around.

Even as I wrote this I thought that it would be cool if the missions that were added would have their mission story line reference back to the lore and live events that have been going on. Little things like that add a layer of immersion for lots of people. Those that don't read the story and just senselessly grind missions will continue to do so no matter what the mechanics  For many, who want to play Eve as a game with a story it would give them more access to that story.

But this was supposed to be about making ISK.  At the end of the day, Eve is always about making ISK. ISK is the big drive and the big limiting factor. The way the forumals work is that in high sec you get a certai ISK payout. As the security status of the system lowers the payout increases. This counts for bounties, mission rewards, and loyalty points.  The ISK gained from mission PvE comes from direct ISK injection i the form of bounties and mission payouts. The second way is from loyalty points.

Loyalty points are a somewhat more complex method of gathering ISK. They are not instant Bacon. A player must decide which faction they wish to gain loyalty points for and what they can use those loyalty points to purchase and supplement their income. Some people never pay much attention to them and some pay lots of attention to them.

And then there is Faction Warfare.  Faction Warfare is all about the gaining of loyalty points and converting them into ISK. This removes direct ISK injection and adds a layer of complexity. That's fine and well and good. What Vov was discussion was the way loyalty point payouts work in faction warfare and the way they surpass anything that can be done outside of Faction Warfare.

As a min/maxer Vov works through level 4 faction warfare missions. The negatives are you have to deal with FW militia that is able to kill you in high sec and low sec. You will also lose standings to the opposing factions and lose it very quickly. Faction standing is easy to lose and ridiculously, mind boggling hard to gain. On the upside, because Faction Warfare mission loyalty points are affected by the tier the faction is currently at when they are at their 4 the pay out is. Between the ease of the missions and the high level of the pay out the draw for a min/maxer is high and with a loyalty point to ISK conversation the ISK per hour can be in the hundreds of millions. He feels that it is obscene that he can make so much so easily and quickly.

My counter argument was "so what?" How can they balance the payout against a min/maxer without harming everyone? No matter how good faction warfare is I don't want to do it. I will never taste the liquid ISK that flows from its missions. It is balanced against me because I won't do it. How is stopping him not going to harm the average person.

His response was that the reason he goes to faction warfare is because it is so high. Not only is the reward incredibly high the reward is worth it elsewhere. He pointed out that a level 4 mission in low sec pays out a few k more loyalty points and maybe a million more ISK then a level 4 mission in high sec. A level 4 mission in faction warfare pays out a a magnitude more and that only increases with the tiers. Running missions or even doing anomalies in low sec has such a slight gain over doing the same in high sec that it does not cause anyone to wish to do it.

To avoid the math of faction warfare and the arguments of faction warfare I will move back over to the true point of my argument. Why is there not a more significant increase in payout for missions outside of high security space? Level 5's are nice but I don't think players that would pull their income from level 2 and 3 missions find level 5 missions a viable, immediate future. I also don't wish to answer every need to make ISK outside of high sec and without joining a null block to be "go to faction warfare". It goes against my entire little "help low sec" thing.

This is not a carrot post. I'm not discussion drawing people out of high security space and into low security space or null security space. If people want to come they will come. There are ventures that mine in the belts.  There are explorers that die in the sites. Those that want to leave high sec will leave high sec. What I speak of is feeding those that live in low sec.

While we spend a lot of time discussing giving low sec its own defined feel and reason, as I look around me of late I wonder why we don't have some of the very basics life needs. If risk = reward, even in a small way, why do our gains suck? The risk that is taken when one steps through the high sec gate into low sec is a sheer cliff. It is not just 10% more dangerous. On top of that, for those that go to live in low sec they are bound to low sec and null sec to make their ISK. But, the increased risk taken by the life style means an increased loss that is also taken. There is no pimped out mission boat that you crack out and use to cruse through some missions while reading the forums. You use the same ships that you are going to fight in or you use a pimped out boat that you try desperately to keep and you will sometimes lose.

Low sec lacks decent ways for its player base who stay in low sec by choice or choice given by game mechanics to thrive there. And unlike wormhole space, where they have to trade their goods to make the ISK the space already contains the basic building blocks. The bounties are there. The missions are there. They have just not been looked at or touched for a tremendously long period of time.

I was told when discussing many aspects of this that I speak of solo play. I do. Eve's mission system and bounty system does not reward corp play on very many levels. The payouts split. But, outside of that, for a new player they often need a certain amount of independence. Low sec is populated by small corporations of people who work together on many levels but the chances are high that there will not always be someone on to help. Having content for people to do when alone is very important. It does not mean that you play Eve solo to do something alone. I'd never define my game play as solo but I do many activities by myself. Yet, when I undock, and place myself out there to be hunted down the reason that I undock needs to have value to me. It can be that I am moving around to do something. That means I'll take a fast ship, built for speed and avoidance. It may mean I'm looking for trouble. I'd pick a different fit for that.

If I am going to go to make money I have a duel need. I need to be ready to face the NPCs in whatever situation they are in. I also need to be able to face whatever player situations I may face. I don't mission the same way that I would in high sec. I cannot do so. I've spent a lot of time being hunted down by people and avoided it. I've spent a lot of time hunting down people and maybe catching them and maybe not.

None of that is what I would experience in high sec.

I've often heard that becoming outlaw is a choice. It is. But is it a choice that should be punished by making the game suck? The innate loss of low sec is already there. The average low sec pilot is going to go through a higher number of ships on a day to day basis. They are going to need a higher number of ships available to them to deal with situations they come across. They are going to have to turn down rewards and make decisions not to do the things they want to go and do because of the situation that may currently be in space.

Soundwave spoke that not every player is entitled to success. That is true. However, success and basic gameplay are two different things. A neglected game mechanics such as the payouts for missions and anoms is still a neglected game mechanic.

Mission payouts need work. They need to be looked at more often then they are. People often ask why newbies turn to mining because its boring and no one should mine. They do it because it is the most profitable activity that they can do for quite a while. Everything else takes time and skills. People kind of sort of want to play right now. They may not play well but they want to play. Level 1 missions do not match newbie mining for income. They don't turn to level 1 missions because level 1 missions are done for standings and to get better missions.

Someone will shout station trading and I will only roll my eyes. Not everyone is cut out to station trade. While not everyone is cut out to earn oodles and oodles of ISK there is a particular level that they need to progress in the game and that is why they turn to mining instead of running missions even if they dislike mining. Later it may be about ease and afk value but at first it is simply the fastest way for them to make the income to earn the things that they need. Such as a cruiser to do higher level missions.

People, playing a valid game style, need to be able to support the basics of the game style. They should be able to earn a cruiser. "Don't go outlaw" should not be the answer. Viability does not have to mean billions. It does not have to mean ISK fountains. It needs to provide the player with their basic needs if the needs are currently expected to be met in the area. And if there are things like missions in low sec I'm going to gain the expectation that they are there for players to do and function from them. I don't think they need to feed every need and desire for the eternity of the eve career. But for a new player just starting with the need to finance themselves the options need to keep up with the demands. It would be nice if they could make the same as a high sec newbie mining veldspar in a venture off something like missions.


  1. I see a contradiction in your post: you expect a decent, hourly paid income in a world where you took the position of an outlaw? Why should the Minmatar Republic (or any other) pay you when you do nothing but robbing, stealing and murdering? Can a criminal have a day job without the police and rival gangs attacking him?

    Also, please consider that if you were the only player online, a lowsec mission wouldn't be harder than a highsec. Pirates like yourself make it more dangerous who shoot anything that floats.

    Null and WH people live in unruly areas what they built up. Everything there is player built. Highsec dwellers are boring workers slaving in their cubicals. FW people are doing shady works for their empires. But who should pay a pirate?

    Maybe pirates should earn money on pirating: jump freighter ganks, drug dealing and such.

    The image of the pirate is glorified. The truth isn't Jack Sparrow, the true pirate is an impoverished Somalian fisherman who ransom freighters.

    You choose that life. Live with it!

    1. I didn't say pirate I said someone that lives in low sec who has an outlaw status. A 2 week old player cannot make money off of freighter gankings. An outlaw should not have to go to high sec to gank freighters to make ISK. I have no interest at all in ganking. I have tried it once and found it uninteresting. That is not proper fall back.

      Go gank people for your ISK your 2 week old player. You made a choice and you don't get the basic game mechanics that everyone else gets even thought they currently exist inside of your area that you live in and have not been looked at or touched or paid any attention to for months. So instead,you are forced to have nothing because you chose to play the game as you are allowed to play it and hopefully some mythical drop that does not really exist will appear.

      I happen to deal drugs. Its not actually profitable. I break even. It also takes a tremendous amount of time and skills and ISK to start up. Again, how are they supposed to reach these things? How are they supposed to get to this point where they can even do any of these things if they can not afford a basic living.

      If there were no missions in low sec, no anoms, no bounty payments, then sure. But they are all there and they are meant to be there but they are not functioning as intended.

      To often people spend this vast amount of time focusing on what is 'bad' and how they are 'evil' and they are 'criminals' and apply their current real world moral philosophies onto people. That is great and nice but it does not work. There is a certain point where the game is just that a game meant to be played and enjoyed with the basic interests and successes of a game. To wrap up in 'piracy' and 'anti-piracy' and what you deserve on a moral level is to ignore the actual game play mechanics and their functional adequacy.

    2. And to go further if I removed the status of 'outlaw' and 'pirate' and spoke of someone who is not those two things they are still faced with that same situation. But is the answer 'go to high sec and do it in safety' and if that is the answer is that what we want the answer to be.

      If yes, I'd like to stated nice and clear and I will shut up. If I am told, 'none of that is for you. You are not to have the ability to gain or improve as a new player in low sec because that is what high sec is for. Low sec is not for actually living in. Low sec is not for finding success in despite the risk and odds that are against you. We don't want that there. You can't have that in a bad area'"

      Because that is what I hear. It is easy for you to be judgmental and put a stamp on "that's what you asked for" Gevlon. It isn't your part of the game. It is as easy for me to look at people in wormholes and tell them that they don't deserve greater security or reasonable prices on POS fuel or anything else because they chose something hard and challanging.

      No one has a problem with hard or challenging but there is a difference between that and not having even a basic balance of reward.

      Yes my argument wanders but that is because there are so many points. I could sum things up into a nice little box and ignore dozens of factors that effect it. But I'm not going to sit there and do the 'low sec is broken and I'm not going to make suggestions because I am bitter' thing nor am I going to say 'PvE sucks and I'm going to ignore it'.

      I may be shit at making beautiful arguments that sway the masses towards what I say but at least I'm willing to say it instead of treating the subject like it is somehow inherently dirty. So tell me that it is what I chose to your hearts content. What I chose to do is live in a section of the game that has game play mechanics like every other section of the game.

      What I have chosen to do is comment that those game play mechanics appear not to function as they are intended to function. If they wish to tell me that I don't deserve the right to mission then they can remove them.

      And understand that alone to me means without my corporation not inside of an empty system with no other person present. Contract to popular belief, low sec is rather well traveled through.

    3. Exactly because it's a game, lowsec has a reward, the fun you get playing there. If this reward would be inadequate, you'd leave lowsec (maybe the game too).

      What you want is fun AND profit but it's impossible as your fun is directly related to ruining the profit of others (it's hard to mission when he was just podded by the evil Pirate Queen). Lowsec can't be the place of profit and ruining profit at the same time.

      Or actually it can, but that is a very competitive place, where the very skilled and organized earn ISK and dominate others while the others suffer.

    4. I cannot believe that you are making me agree with anything Gevlon wrote. I should open an ice skate franchise in Hell...

      HS, LS, NS, and WH are choices. Some pay much better than others. Some are not going to fit your style. When you went to LS you, presumably, went in knowing that it was a more dangerous version of HS. NPC space, missions, mining, etc. Slightly higher rewards, much higher risk, basically indifferent CONCORD. You can spin some fairly elegant arguments on risk-reward in gaming but they will never be completely accurate. Even if you believe you have the perfect balance the players who min-max are always going to define a right answer and everything else. Even if the right answer is only 0.05% better, it is still inherently correct and will become the "must do" activity.

      Does LS need changes? Yes, but probably not as desperately as NS. Null should be the jewel in the Eve crown and it isn't close. I would also argue that FW was the initial fix to LS. It is clearly a winner in the reward category and it is an LS activity. What else can you add? If you just adjust the pay-out of missions you are going to create a feedback loop. More ships in LS doing missions, more pirates attacking those ships, therefore increased cost to mission in LS. While that may be good from a game-play perspective it is not going to automatically make LS more profitable.

    5. I think there is an inherent assumption that I speak for my self at where I am in game and that I seek richness with some vastly greater ease. I'm speaking for the very basic activities receiving an adjustment in payout since they have not been looked at or touched.

      FW is not the fix for low sex. FW is for FW and pointing to it and demanding that anyone in low sec that wishes to make income to support their most basic needs as a new player must go to FW is not the answer to having a thriving area of the game.

      Null is not a jewel. It is something that people want to so. Just as low sec is something people want to do. Or high sec or faction warfare. Because I say look at low sec does not mean that every other part of the game glitters with perfection. It means hey look at this too. Null has its own advocates. Thousands of them and they are very vocal. This blog is where Kong discussions on improving null sec will be found.

      And if low sec is just fine and dandy and those that lice there deserve nothing more from the enviorment than what they have fine. I'd like it to be said. But at this time I continue to say that new players in high sec are driven to mining simply because missions are vastly inadequate to their needs and that those in low sec face an even greater disparity.

      I still feel that judgment is being made in such a way as to ignore what there is and leave it as it stands because it doesn't matter or worse those who wish to be there deserve nothing more.

      And as for min/maxers if everything is designed and defined around their perceptions then what for all of those who simply play? Is it so fantastic to leave great rifts of game play neglected and unused even as the most basic supplementary action? At no point have I asked for it to surpass or become the best but for a baseline margin of improvement to happen. That is something that should be happening each expansion anyway. This stuff needs to be reevaluated and not just ignored while players are told to go elsewhere.

    6. But here's the thing - you are asking for a more profitable LS. That is the fundamental premise for your post and your responses. I agree that LS is broken, but so are HS and NS. I've no interest in WH so I can't answer there.

      So, as in all program management problems the question is distribution of resources. If you have to rank HS, LS, and NS fixes where do you place LS? If all you want is simple reward adjustment, well that is likely to be self-defeating. If LS pays significantly more it is likely to attract more missioners and in turn increase piracy - probably highly organized and efficient piracy. You would need a more fundamental fix, but first you need to identify the problem. What should LS do that it doesn't do now?

      I spend time in LS to do FW and maybe grab some bounties. I've no interest in playing the romantic pirate nonsense. Too many years studying the actual history of the Atlantic System to be at all enamored over rape, robbery, and murder. You will have to explain, in more detail than "more money" what you think is lacking. Turn that into a problem statement that can generate a set of requirements. Nothing annoys me more, in my day job, than someone telling me that they system is "borked". Thank you very much, now be specific.

      By the way, I hate mining. I refused to do it after the tutorials, even though I fully understand the reality of reward scales for new characters. Fighting out level 1 security missions and grinding toward my Cruiser was not the best entertainment I've had but it was enough to keep me engaged and building skills and ISK toward my goal. If you actually enjoy it, you should do it. If you don't enjoy it, stop.

    7. To try to answer quickly I will first say that I cannot truthfully answer any order of importance. I don't know which one is. I'm also not asking for an order of importance I'm trying to point out an area. I can be told that it matters so little its just a me issue.

      Currently payments are higher in low then in high and higher in null then in low. If so what is the increase. Is it just a nod or is it supposed to represent something. If it represents something should it represent it or just remain in a state it was when first realized despite the change of the game.

      I'm not presenting some game fixing low sec would become perfect thing. I'm asking if this system is really adaquate for whatnot is supposed to do in its current shape which is allow players to earn their ships in the enviorment they will be in.

      I'm not talking about the romance of pirates and outlaws OE anything else. I'm wondering if the current rewards reward for low level players seeking out their existence.

    8. Fair enough, you are taking the position of a single-issue advocate for new players who base in LS. My instinctual reaction is that if a newbie or lowbie player decides to take the most difficult path that player should expect to have the most difficult experience.

      To extend your point, I could argue that LS needs special commercial dispensations to permit the lowbie to purchase skill books, ships, and fittings at the same cost you would expect at Jita or at least Dodixie. Is it fair that this person has to go all the way into HS to get gear or pay whatever the local store owner decides is fair compensation for the time and expense of hauling things into LS?

      The reason I decided to try Eve, despite the terrible reputation of the players, is the idea that decisions have consequences. If you decide to base in LS at a young age, you are going to pay the price. That, at least, is working as intended.

      Though I still think HS, LS, NS, and the new player experience all need fixes.

    9. Where in the game does it say that non-fw lowsec is or should be the most difficult part of the game for new players?

      Right now I see 2 voices. One who lives in lowsec, deals with new players who wwant to live there and knows the problems they face. The other lives in Hisec? Is that why you think that people who are new and cant even fly cruisers yet shouldnt be able to do anything by themselves in lowsec from a pve standpoint that alows them to sustain themselves?

      Back when 1/10 and 2/10 static plexs existed, yes, we had places to direct new players. "Go do these things a couple times a day and get enough isk for more frigates" Now these things are gone. Additionally, with crimewatch it is easier to drop your sec status as a small ship than ever before in lowsec.

      Unfortunately there are people who see 'outlaw' and think that because you pvp alot you either shouldnt be able to make a sustainable income for yourself as a new player or should have moved to FW, null, or whatever. And you say its fair for that to happen because outlaws are what? Bad people who should be punished for shooting others?

      The problem isnt the price, which is not being able to go hisec. The problem is that as a new player you are SOL until you get atleast a decently fit cruiser and scanning skills for easier radars/mags, or wait until you can tag along with someone so you can get salvage or something. When pirates are even telling new players not to bother because the game mechanics cant support the lifestyle, maybe there is a problem?


    10. Or, perhaps, I said LS is the hardest because:

      - HS has CONCORD and a lot of fairly low price equipment.
      - No one goes to NS unless they have a corporation and alliance looking out for them.
      - LS is often me-against-the-world, as in HS, but with a lot more dangerous neighbors and no CONCORD.

      I suppose it's just much more fun to drop attacks and not have to actually think of a response?

      And I live in HS and LS, depending on what I'm doing that week. The whole pirate thing, from a game mechanics perspective, has nothing to do with pirates lacking any sort of moral compass. It's about the logical penalty for playing outside the established rules of Empire space. And I still fail to see how that's relevant to a lowbie in LS. You are going to lose far more ships to other players than every other cause combined. How does your security standing with CONCORD or Empire matter in that equation?

    11. People tend to go to lowsec for the pvp. They tend to expect to lose ships in pvp. This is not the problem at all. The problem is, as a new player, you cant make a sustainable income in lowsec to allow you to lose multiple t1 fit frigates a day to pvp.

      Security standing matters beause in hisec you are not expected to be going out and doing alot of pvp. You have multiple game mechanics from concord and the saftey system to prevent or atleast help prevent hisec losses. You should not expect to make an income to support pvp in that area.

      In FW you can, as a day old pilot, easily look for a fight by orbiting a button for 10 minutes and if nobody comes to fight you you get more than enough lp to throw away 5-10 more frigates. Its self sustainable, you make enough isk where you live to be able to do what is allowed there.

      You can not make even half that much as a new player in non fw lowsec by yourself. You are forced to tag along for something in order to get an income and sometimes you dont have people active or able to babysit you.

      Its fine to be locked out of hisec, nobody who goes pirate will ever complain about that with the rare exception of live events held in hisec such as the caldari titan.

      But if I choose, as a new player, to live in an area that is essentially designed to have alot of pvp, should I not be able to afford at the very least t1 frigs and maybe destroyers? FW lets you do this and losses are almost an afterthought for new players, but you simply cant get a viable (enough for a few frigs a day) income as a new player deciding to live in non-fw lowsec.

      Once you can get into a decently fit bc you are generally fine as far as income generation goes (still pales in comparison to fw but still enough to do pvp). Until you reach that point it is extreamly difficult to fund pvp and for a new player who is only flying t1 fit frigs and dessies it shouldnt be nearly as hard as it is.


    12. "In FW you can, as a day old pilot, easily look for a fight by orbiting a button for 10 minutes and if nobody comes to fight you you get more than enough lp to throw away 5-10 more frigates."

      And that's rather the point. There is a huge money-maker in LS but you don't want to use it. I can understand, though I do like FW, that some things just don't fit. I spent a lot of time grinding level 1 security missions to earn a Cruiser because I cannot stand mining. However, I did that with full knowledge that I was gimping my ISK-earning potential. Rather like a LS pilot who will not do FW once or twice a week is not using all resources available.

      Fundamentally, this is the choice the player makes. If you want to be a lowbie in LS it seems to me that you need to understand the rules - you are fresh meat, you are going to lose ships at a prodigious rate for a while, and the ISK opportunities are there but may not be what you want to do. If this is a problem do the same as anyone else and either accept that you are going to be poor or find another angle.

      And no, I don't think that LS pilots should be guaranteed several FG and DD a day just for running some missions any more than I believe that a carebear should be guaranteed a replacement for his only Orca if he gets ganked. If you want to live in a PvP environment you need to be prepared not only to lose ships but to replace them.

      Having said that, I still believe that HS, LS, and NS need overhauls. The system is not fully functional but tossing extravagant ISK-making opportunities into LS without a comprehensive review will solve nothing and may exacerbate the problem.

    13. And thats exactly the conclusion I came to.

      There is no point in doing most pve in non fw lowsec given that fw pays so well for doing next to nothing. Even by min maxing non fw missions and such I havent even come close to the income of casualy doing fw. By min maxing fw you can get hundreds of millions an hour for comparatively little effort. Ofcourse anyone who doesnt participate in the mechanic is at a huge loss.

      That is what the problem is. FW has essentially alienated and devalued the majority of other forms of pve in lowsec to such an extent that if you arent doing fw, (even once or twice a week) then its not hard to see that you are making a huge mistake with regards to getting income for pvp.

      It doesn't sit well with me that nearly any income question I get from a new player is generally answered by 'oh just go to fw and orbit this button, or do these fw missions in this ship, etc'

      I would love for the rest of lowsec to be comparable to fw. I would love for fw to be nerfed hard and the rest of lowsec to be buffed slightly in terms of income.

      You say you dont think someone should be able to afford frigs and dessies by simply running an easy mission, yet they can do that twice over and again by sitting on a button in space for 10 mins. FW even in its current state is an extravagant isk making opportunity. It makes the rest of lowsec far less valueable and worth living in for income.

      Ive done fw pre nerf, I was partly responsible for the massive plex spike when Hatchery bought out jita. Even post tier change the income has only been cut to ~700m an hour per account at tier 4 minmatar from a min maxing perspective.

      I don't feel like this is a good thing and I would love for all of lowsec to be roughly equal in terms of pve income. That way my choice of pve in lowsec is whatever I find fun, not whatever ccp have touched last. FW needs to be nerfed heavily but the rest of lowsec should be brought up just a bit so it is sustainable for new pilots.


  2. There is some hope. During one of the pre Fan Fest videos, the devs discussed making npcs in missions fight more like players. They are thinking of fewer npcs with tougher builds that can be fought by players with pvp spec'ed ships. I will see if the video is still up on twitch tv.

  3. It would be really cool if they would change the L5 missions and make them more like incursions. I.e make them harder and maybe have diffrent bosses from diffrent factions that require you to jam it so it doesn't oneshot your "tank"-ship. This way you would need to organize a good but small group of pilots in correct ships to complete the mission. Maybe even add in more RNG factor so you need to adapt and think fast. Maybe add timer on the boss so you need decent dps and tacklers or he will warp off and mission will fail. The L5 could also be connected to the diffrent pirate factions with their own LP-stores maybe with exclusive "pirate"-items. This would increase the rewards and put the pilots up for a harder teamwork test.

    This revamped AI should imo actually be implemented across the board since todays AI of EvE is very 2009 and doesn't require many braincells to overcome.

    Another thought is also that these NEW pirate missions could be PvP-oriented missions. Like kill a certain number of players and it would be sick if you could get a bigger mission after like 15 missions that sends you on a bigger fleet PvP-op into nullsec where lets say you have to take down a POS or engage a TCU and kill a certain number of pilots within that SOV-system. This could expand the piracy of EvE to actually have some influence in EvE and fight like the small hit and run rebellions they are.

    You could also add diffrent types of pirates ranks that might give you bonuses in your home-system or that you need a certain rank to be able to purchase that item form the pirate lp-store. There is alot of things that could pimp lowsec without to much work. Right now it's just a playhouse without to much story. And yea the rewards suck.

    We faceroll L4's in highsec or semiafk mine or faceroll incursions in highsec with no risk and high payouts.
    Doing missions in low - not worth it.

    Exploring in low - not worth it unless your uberlucky all the time. 80% of the time you find useless crap.
    Anoms/DED - sux, if u really wanna do them just go to null its even safer.
    Ratting - same as anom/ded.

    PI - same as above just go to null.


  4. I don't think the suggestion is that we should be getting rich in low sec, but truthfully as it is now there is very little ISK making aside from FW so it becomes difficult not just to get rich, but to even support playing in low sec and recuperating your ship losses.

    Most of us in low got sold on the idea of EVE being this sandbox game where we would be flying around, escaping from dangerous pirates and other ne'er do wells who would bring harm upon us, while getting in some good fights on our own amd having adventure and risk and danger and the like. It's a much shittier marketing pitch to say "danger, adventure, space battles! oh and you also have to set up a second account to grind boring shit with no risk or adventure in high sec for hours on end to be able to play the fun part of the game because you can't make money in the fun place".

    We're in low sec because it's fun. I don't want to get rich, I just want to be able to make money without having to do the boring as fuck risk free high sec grind. Fuck high sec.

  5. There are as many ISK sources in lowsec as there are in highsec, and the difference in risk is entirely player derived. Which means, as a player, rather than complain about the rewards, you should be concerned with influencing risk. If a state could be reached at which, for example, calling for help in local would actually result in getting help, or at least revenge, rather than getting laughed at, the risk would be greatly mitigated and the reward/loss ratio would become much better. Obviously, this would require a wide adoption of some sort of No Red No Shoot policy, since no single social group can actually have enough presence to effect that reasonably across space and time.

    Which means that will never happen, since the social equilibrium in lowsec, or EVE in general for that matter, is firmly in the "always defect" attractor, but that is hardly the games fault.

    1. This isnt about risk at all. The entire reason someone goes flashy in lowsec is because they want to pvp. This is about allowing a player who can only fly t1 fit frigs/destroyers to be able to replace said ships. The worry isnt losing ships pveing, its about not being able to support losing ships in pvp as a new player.

  6. Potentially, there could be a boost to lowsec with the new scanning mechanics and new scanner in Odyssey. At the very least, the removal of npcs from profession sites will permit new players to benefit from specialising into exploration before needing larger ships and combat skills.

    However, if any benefits will be specific to lowsec, they've not mentioned it.

    Tags4sec looks like it might be an isk boost for lowseccers. Except who tends to need sec? Lowseccers. Null sec residents don't need it, wormhole residents don't need it, and 5.0 sec status highbears don't need it. :(


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