Wednesday, August 15, 2012

What Price for People?

[TL;DR: Stuff about People]

I read a conversation a long time ago (aka a few months) that once someone reaches 10bil they are not gutter trash space poor anymore. It was not rick but it was an 'okay' amount of ISK to have. I think that stuck with me and is one reason why I've pushed towards the 10b mark(not there yet).

I'm an ISK hoarder by nature. I acquire it because I like to acquire it. I know for many ISK is a means to a goal and there is no meaning in acquisition just for acquisitions sake. Not me. I like it. Making ISK for me is based off of vague things like 'fun' in gaining the ISK vs 'fun' in spending the ISK. I don't worry perfect numbers and times for maximum use or profit. I was told that this disqualifies me from being an ISK whore. I was a bit disappointed.

This the conversation came up where I was commenting that my corp had gotten around to doing a Jump Freighter run and my ships were restocked. I wasn't running out of ships but I had been given ISK to buy a few ships and a mission to go forth and try to be more bold in pewpew attempts with those ships.

I grabbed some cruisers and have decided to try to mix some null sec adventurism with trying to be more brave by myself. Anyway, as is the normal habit, I purchased everything in a trade hub and contracted it to the corps jump freighter character. Once the mood is right, the contracts are all accepted and the items all jumped. I don't even make them courier contracts, just straight up stacks of ships. Smaller items I can and do move myself.

While I discussing this, I was asked why I had not used Black Frog to move my items.

"Black Frog would be a 50mil ISK charge and my corporation did not charge me. I was not in a rush so why spend the ISK?"

"You are not exactly poor."

"True. But why spend when I don't have to?"

A third party stepped in. It's an open chatroom and conversation is welcome. Sometimes communication fails.

He said: "The point is the opportunity cost. The amount of time you spent moving ships yourself could have been spent doing ISK-making activity. If that amount of money was greater than the price of Black Frog, you should have outsourced the work to them ...and if that amount of money was less, then you were right to do the work yourself."

I was a bit startled. I responded:

"[these]Ships are not for ISK making. I did my normal isk making activities regardless. The ships are for me to go and lose in PvP, they have nothing to do with isk making at all"

So, there was a correction and I thought understanding.

Then he said, "Ah, then the real "problem" is all those people with jump freighters who are willing to work for free. Take advantage of them then, it's almost as good as ganking."

Click me into cold pissed mode. I'm so randomly tolerant of most things. Then, buttons get pushed. Sometimes I do not realize I have those buttons. For someone to tell me to take advantage of my corporation members left me rather pissed off. I also know that this is Eve and there is lots of in corporation backstabbing so the idea put out is not unknown. It is not the one that I want to follow.

The conversation went back and forth for a bit and then I just stopped. I could not explain to him the concept of doing things for the people that you do things with and who do things for you. I could also use the term 'friends' but when I'm hanging out in some of this chat, that seems to be a bad word. I use it anyway.

"They ought to be charging for their cargo space at competetive rates, instead of letting their "friendly helpful people" freeload off them. Your two reasons are simply "don't give a fuck" and "money is negligible" neither of which are valid. We're talking about a difference of philosophy. Corp building, how do they say... corps esprit? versus capitalism"

I had to ask,

"When did capitalism come into the conversation?"

Back and forth, how fluid conversations are. We were discussing two different things with two different mentalities about the same subject. What a mess. The conversation shut down, thankfully.

I wasn't expecting my eve mail to flash and him to send a clarification:

Re: corpmates moving stuff in their freighters for free.

The solution is that you should offer to pay them a reasonable fee when they help you. They will graciously decline; but they will learn that you respect them enough to offer to compensate them for their valuable time.

Of course you'd also make it clear that you are willing to repay them in favors instead of ISK, or whichever is more appropriate. I'm sure y'all already do that.

If they're dirt poor, they may graciously accept your ISK instead of graciously declining. Then you're off the hook for favors. Either way, corps esprit is strengthened and capitalism thrives. The best of both worlds.

I hope this clarifies my position in our earlier chat. Cracking the whip, taking advantage of their free labor, those were meant to be a bit of "evil", implying the opposite while seguing from the other conversation. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Thanks for the chat, see ya 'round.

The best part is that I get to say, "He don't know me". Ahh. Picture that with some snapping fingers and neck movements. But, he does not. If my corporation were larger or not as tightly knit this could make sense. Very often we pay others for their time as a thank you. If someone is going out of their way to help you you say thanks. If someone asked for jump freighter fuel you give it and don't think twice. But, my first thoughts are not to charge the people I play with.

But it's not about price. It's not about 'not owning favors". It certainly can be. I know many people are in corporations and alliances for no other reason than current personal interest. I don't go, "Anyone need anything?" when I am about to leave a trade hub with the future plans of being paid or gaining favors from people.

It's bonding. Or social stuff. Or friendship. Or the type of thing you do for someone you like just because you like them. Its bringing someone a soda when you get one for yourself without them asking and you happen to know what they like.

10 comments:

  1. I love people who talk about opportunity costs. Sometimes they don't get that in a sandbox a payout doesn't necessarily involve ISK or material goods.

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    Replies
    1. It is a perception thing. I make it rather clear, I believe, that my interaction with my core group of people is an important part of my game play.

      Someone brought up in an Eve Mail that my 'kindness' of doing things for people may create obligation and resentment for not being able to pay that obligation and a feeling of indebtedness to me.

      I said that if they are going to feel obligated and in debt because they did not pay me to use my empty hauler space to grab something from them, there are deeper issues.

      On the flip side, yes, the 'cost' or 'price' is the social building blocks of the corporation. It is an intangible cost that is not answered by ISK. But there are times when you do something for someone because you want to and that is the only reason.

      Delete
  2. What about helping others out, because its the right thing to do, and with that you hope other might do the same thing?

    Or this is the wrong game to be "good" person?

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    Replies
    1. It is not the wrong game to be a good person. It is the wrong game to assume that everyone should focus on your own concepts of morality. If you want to be a 'good' person as you define it then that is fantastic. But some people do not wish to be good people and the game lets them play that way which is also fantastic.

      Delete
    2. Yes I understand that and what you can do and not do, and what to expect from others, but still what you are as a person will transpire to the game, but of course if you are threatened and addressed you will fight back. But even if you think everyone will be dicks, you will not be one.

      Delete
  3. I have also been in a corp where there were people who abused your time, they never ventured to a trade hub themselves, they never had a hauler handy when they killed a hauler spawn, but whenever they needed something the were more than happy to ask for you to waste your game time doing them a favor.

    I to this day will not help someone out who doesn't return the favor. If you needed something taken to or from the trade hub but have not done that for me... Sorry about you luck, go to Jita for yourself.

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    Replies
    1. Good! And when the world is right and proper things flow back and forth. If not, you nip the issue in the bud. I don't advocate being a doormat, ever.

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    2. Why bother others, if you have the opportunity and tools to solve your problem, that way at least you learn something.
      But I agree in part with you, if the people has the tools to solve there problem but its to lazy, its there problem not mine, but if the people is still new and does not know how to solve the problem, usually I try to help if i can and want.

      Delete
  4. If you don't advocate 'being a doormat', then an economist, viewing your behavior, could match up friendly social action A (e.g. the jump freighter pilot's hauling labor) with reciprocal friendly social action B (e.g. whatever you eventuallu in return that demonstrates that the jump freighter pilot was not being a doormat), and say that they're roughly the same value.

    Opportunity cost and similar concepts might be a cold, awkward, unfriendly perspective on the world, but everyone from every perspective is looking at the same world.

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  5. WTB Gevlon "socials, UrDoingItWrongBro" rant.... ;-)

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