tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post4144265780196759254..comments2024-03-05T12:41:20.217-05:00Comments on Low Sec Lifestyle: The Corporate IndividualSugar Kylehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15437978687639772023noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-78486308780694655062014-06-27T19:51:41.658-04:002014-06-27T19:51:41.658-04:00i want to know who's active and who's a fr...i want to know who's active and who's a freaking AFK waste of space alt spy.<br />i want to know why that corp member is making a dickmove because he's got nothing better to do, or if he's getting distracted alot in a mission/trading/etc.<br /><br /><br />video game "job"? I dunno how 1% tax to keep tabs on large amounts of people is going to be seen as "controlling, following, monitoring"? How the hell has that amount of time to spent keeping tabs on things CCP hasn't even coded yet and hasn't bothered in over 10 years??<br /><br />If anyone wanted to be 'opted' out of killmails i'd be instantly suspicious of their rabid need for 'privacy' and anonymity in a game that is currently a haven for alt griefing.MinorFreakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02935448943839231164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-7471478514588744042014-06-25T22:14:48.796-04:002014-06-25T22:14:48.796-04:00I would approach the problem from an entirely prag...I would approach the problem from an entirely pragmatic point of view: what do people currently try to do in corporations, and how do we make that suck less?<br /><br />Two examples:<br /><br />When we were in high sec, we held regular mining ops. The ore from the op was divided equally among the attendees. The goal was to get newbies some ISK and some camaraderie, without being limited to the capabilities of their mining frigate (this was before the Venture). That was handled by the same very small group of veterans, who had the requisite spreadsheets and the Hulks and the freighters, and who had done it all for years.<br /><br />Then we moved into a wormhole, and did more or less the same thing with site running ops.<br /><br />Would you consider it worthwhile to make that sort of thing easier? How? If a corp wants to pay out based on what's put in (easier with mining than with WH anom running), should that be an option? I know there are corps that go about ops that way.<br /><br />tl;dr: collect a whole bunch of use cases, add a list of what people would really like to do except for the rassin' frassin' corp interface, and go from there.<br /><br />Dersen Lowerynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-45311985435433426862014-06-25T21:31:00.808-04:002014-06-25T21:31:00.808-04:00I also feel like I've mostly seen answers from...I also feel like I've mostly seen answers from CEOs and people that run corps not people in them.Sugar Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15437978687639772023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-82845506200155530932014-06-25T20:18:08.893-04:002014-06-25T20:18:08.893-04:00Would you use "variety" to justify "...Would you use "variety" to justify "separate but equal." I think most would agree separate but equal is rarely equal. So why is it good game design to give one class of player/corporation options that you do not give another?<br /><br />Things that are physically different are fine. If the hole is to small to pass the boat that is understood. But to allow some to improve their homes while having no method for others to do so is bad. Why is it acceptable to make one type of corp so much more vulnerable to thievery than another? Why does a stack all work in a station quickly but it is a lag inducing issue at a pos? The fact that so few use the pos interface has much to do with its terriblevstate. Why not correct this by just putting destructible outposts with a reasonable reinforce mechanic as an option for wormholes. Add a few guns on the outside to prevent docking games and the experience would not be that much different from a pos yet would have numerous quality of life improvements. A corp project to build one would not be terrible either.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-54450868406660324992014-06-25T20:04:57.200-04:002014-06-25T20:04:57.200-04:00Exactly, so why does the CEO have the ability to s...Exactly, so why does the CEO have the ability to see where you are as well as all killmails associated with you? It's fine to have these as options but it would be better for the corp and/or members to be able to opt out of this level of monitoring.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-50936999567005214532014-06-25T18:37:15.401-04:002014-06-25T18:37:15.401-04:00Okay, so what is the corporation and what is the p...Okay, so what is the corporation and what is the player here?<br /><br />Are we handing ourselves over to be controlled, followed, and monitored by video game jobs? What are we being transparent about? Honestly, why am I beholden to my corporation to know every activity that I do so that they can tax it as they see fit?Sugar Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15437978687639772023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-10121056991917953122014-06-25T18:27:27.123-04:002014-06-25T18:27:27.123-04:00and jr accountant can let them insure corporate sh...and jr accountant can let them insure corporate ships...great way to awox an account balanceMinorFreakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02935448943839231164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-39015949156341949622014-06-25T18:10:56.205-04:002014-06-25T18:10:56.205-04:00"Whatever reason is suggested as to why it is..."Whatever reason is suggested as to why it is bad on one hand should be taken into account and corrected for the other as it is likely equally bad."<br /><br />Reason: Variety is good to have.<br />Correction: None is required.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-68211587247386144962014-06-25T16:58:49.723-04:002014-06-25T16:58:49.723-04:00For me at least, it's not that the members dem...For me at least, it's not that the members demand to see the books, it is my desire to share them. I feel it is better to share the knowledge of how little we have and how it is spent than to deal with the imagination of how much we might have and how it could be wasted. Unlike some organizations in game, our money as a wormhole corp has to one way or another come from the members pocket. If more services are desired more must be taxed.<br /><br />It is perhaps worth asking why ccp gifts some organizations passive income that does not come from their membership while other organizations have no such opportunities. That is an out of character game design question and perhaps overly philosophical. That said I would be thrilled to fuel my towers and srp ships in a way that does not source the money from the members themselves.<br /><br /> Also consider that some get to build very permanent structures for their membership such as outposts while others do not. Why exactly is it not possible to upgrade wormholes or build outposts? If an organization wanted to put the effort into low sec to upgrade it or provide different housing why is it similarly forbidden? One would presume the stacking of bricks to build a structure in one space would be much like it is in another. Whatever reason is suggested as to why it is bad on one hand should be taken into account and corrected for the other as it is likely equally bad.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-27542671430254947302014-06-25T16:06:10.282-04:002014-06-25T16:06:10.282-04:00A few posts back Sugar commented off hand that POC...A few posts back Sugar commented off hand that POCO’s were misnamed as they’re really Corporation Owned Customs Offices (COCOs). The more accurate renaming, in addition to being filled with chocolaty goodness, points at a way to think of Corporations as institutions in their own right completely disconnected from the individual members in the corporation. (Players don’t own customs offices, rather corporations that happen to be run by players own customs offices.)<br /><br />It might make sense for CCP to start considering corporations as entities in their own right rather than merely as vehicles for players to band together. Part of the difficulty we face now is that, unlike individual players who can choose particular careers and subsequent skill paths, corporations are one size fits all entities. Accordingly, non-combat corporations still enable in corp remote repair (and thus also awoxing) even though the particular corporation never plans to use remote repair.<br /><br />If corporations, like individual players, were allowed to begin minimally and then specialize/diversify from there a lot of the tucked away mine fields might prove much easier to navigate. (See Kynric above for some interesting thoughts on how corporations could specialize.)<br /><br />If it was made much clearer that there are many things only player corporations can do or, equally important, only player corporations can do better it would make manifest exactly what a corporation can do for you. Picking an example out of the air, currently the Accounting skill lowers transaction taxes. What if membership in a specialized merchant corporation multiplied that affect? Since the corporation is handing you a benefit it seems reasonable it should be able to charge you for it (tax). Ideally, there’ll be a sweet spot that benefits both the corp and the individual player where the individual player is still paying lower total transaction taxes while the corporation still gets a cut. As everybody is now being handed a reward there also needs to be introduction of risk. Currently the risk can be nigh overwhelming for such small benefit (awoxing, wardeccing, etc . . .) but if the risk was better tailored to the specific benefit (?inter corp trade disputes?) corporation membership would look a lot more appealing.<br /><br />This is an absolutely massive re-thinking of how Eve corporations work but, nonetheless, fun to speculate about.<br /><br />DireNecessity<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-60732985372930829622014-06-25T15:12:28.974-04:002014-06-25T15:12:28.974-04:00I realize some corps provide little, but others by...I realize some corps provide little, but others by necessity provide quite a lot. My own organization, which lives in a wormhole provides a POS to gather at, another as public housing for newer members, pocos, teamspeak, an out of game forum, the mapping software upon which adds so much to our experience, some supplies which the community needs, provides for the community defense, and access to the bookmarks which aid greatly in traversing our surroundings. Those items are not free for the corp to obtain and are quite valuable as well as necessary for our way of life. While our income sources are limited. We can tax PI and ratting, however some member, perhaps even a majority, do not participate in either of those activities. Gassing and sleepers are not easily taxed. My point is that with the current infrastructure some activities are more easily monetized than others. Yes there are workarounds and out of game methods and just plain holding out the can. But if the goal is to facilitate providing content there are likely better ways. Something as simple as a monthly dues bill that functions for the individual in much the same way as a monthly alliance bill. Or perhaps a monthly split of among flagged members not unlike divedends however subtely different in that past months awards do not affect current months splits. Divelidends as they are are too permanent for dividing the organizations profits. Time spent managing money is time not spent generating content.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-66763734387255420612014-06-25T14:56:28.193-04:002014-06-25T14:56:28.193-04:00Aye, but will they make better or worse dynamics i...Aye, but will they make better or worse dynamics in the game?<br /><br />I've never been subject to a corporate audit. I don't know how I'd react to be honest.Sugar Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15437978687639772023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-29735439433734113032014-06-25T13:36:16.284-04:002014-06-25T13:36:16.284-04:00Ignoring JFK's famous quote as an object lesso...Ignoring JFK's famous quote as an object lesson, what exactly can a corporation do for you? It can get you ganked for free (fratricide; safari; awoxer) and wardecced for pennies (LOL. 50m isk a week? TROLOLOL)...beyond the vague promise of a veteran passing on knowledge to recruits, i've never seen the advantage in belonging to a corporation beyond person friendship and a statement of loyalty with a side of roleplay.<br /><br />Seriously though, i can't see any disadvantage for my character(s) playing as NPC corporate members. Hell, there's probably more potential for high sec profit in being in an NPC corp - avoiding fratricide & wardecs.<br /><br />ahhhhhhhhh...that's the thing, Kyle: If we increase the amount of things taxed it would promote the NPC campers to move away from their abodes into less taxed player corps.<br /><br />course, then we'd get more characters with unsavoury employment history of quit/join/quit/join and a vastly increased amount of prey on which the griefers feed upon.<br /><br />yuckMinorFreakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02935448943839231164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-29581885805482575002014-06-25T13:29:44.117-04:002014-06-25T13:29:44.117-04:00Yes, but wouldn't it be nice if the category w...Yes, but wouldn't it be nice if the category were changed to "organizations" and the spit on the info panel which currently says things like "ceo" and "corporation" were changeable by either just a text input or a pull down of choices? It is a silly simple change but it communicates quite a lot. The words chosen set expectations: if we are a military company discipline is expected and individuals understand they have few rights, if it's a village it is expected that the organization provides a home but perhaps does not expect absolute obedience in fitting/fleet comp/member activities, if it is a business there are yet another set of expectations. The simple selection of two words carries a lot of baggage and communication as to what the organization is and what the membership should expect.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-4564445853845706692014-06-25T13:27:52.806-04:002014-06-25T13:27:52.806-04:00To me, taxes allow corporations to track individua...To me, taxes allow corporations to track individual actions. If more things were taxed that means more internal transparency.<br /><br />RL corporations are loathe to release statistics, but surely they have the ability to track their own data...unlike eve corporations. lol<br /><br />I keep my tax % to 1MinorFreakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02935448943839231164noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-72358653807560178712014-06-25T13:13:00.250-04:002014-06-25T13:13:00.250-04:00Right now we are whatever we chose to be due to th...Right now we are whatever we chose to be due to the lack of structure. Once we had it we may find some things harder to obtain. Or not.Sugar Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15437978687639772023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-56131380134223813902014-06-25T12:28:57.444-04:002014-06-25T12:28:57.444-04:00From doing history research corporations were mean...From doing history research corporations were meant to be more and suffered as many early mechanics did with being left a bit incomplete.Sugar Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15437978687639772023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-80827904118431932392014-06-25T10:38:09.829-04:002014-06-25T10:38:09.829-04:00How are they going to get 5% of your minerals? If ...How are they going to get 5% of your minerals? If you compressed or refined in a POS I could see the POS keeping a set percentage as tax for instance. But, outside of that?Sugar Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15437978687639772023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-42708674917189907212014-06-25T10:28:28.659-04:002014-06-25T10:28:28.659-04:00If the corporation works that way who runs it? Do ...If the corporation works that way who runs it? Do you see a defined line between management and employees happening? Are we corporation members or employees? Do we have part time jobs instead of corporation lifestyles?Sugar Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15437978687639772023noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-54461023743428396762014-06-25T09:22:52.475-04:002014-06-25T09:22:52.475-04:00Wow! This quick tread of comments is overwhelming...Wow! This quick tread of comments is overwhelmingly chock full of amazing stuff. Taxes, payrolls, transparency (in both directions, members eyeballing management, management eyeballing members), share options, labeling ('CEO' vs 'Warlord') . . .<br /><br />I'm starting to think CCP should approach Corporation Management as a style of game play in its own right rather than mostly as a vehicle to enable something else.<br /><br />So, for example, right now auditing options are purely a matter of management ticking a role to either enable the option or not while for the player in question no in game skills are required to utilize the option. This leads to at least two things . . . 1) Corporation Management in and of itself is a rather emaciated career path to follow (only seven skills total in the skill tree by my count) and 2) makes managing corporations an overwhelming 'all's available at once' type of game play - there's very little progression.<br /><br />Though I'm hesitant to see CCP spam more skills into the game it might make sense here to add more corporation management skills such that the skills in question open up more and more corporation management options and granularity. This, hopefully, would turn corporation management into an in game career path (which there seems to be great interest in - see numerous details above) and to slow the rate at which newbs can get themselves into terrible trouble by being handed a powerfully dangerous set of tools en masse from the get go. (If opening up an option requires training time players are more likely to take a good hardnosed look at what they’re getting into.)<br /><br />Everything’s done but the work,<br />DireNecessity<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-87542191720899691582014-06-25T04:49:42.425-04:002014-06-25T04:49:42.425-04:00The only problem I see with taxation is that only ...The only problem I see with taxation is that only ratters pay the tax. A miner can pay his tax on the base of trust. That works well in a corporation where the players work together.<br />But the trader has a hard job. If he does a good job in selling and buying stuff all the time it is hard to tell how much profit is made. Adding to the market taxes a small corporate tax of 0.1 to 0.5% would allow a corp to tax the activity of trading and also have a measurement about the activity of your trading dudes.<br /><br />As a corp CEO I don't see taxes as the evil part stealing the money of its members but as a tool to check activity. If someone is less active there might be a problem and I can talk to him whats wrong.<br /><br />And while at taxation, a corporation LP account would be great to reward a high sec corp with faction stuff.Chaninanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-55629125542089356992014-06-25T02:10:23.820-04:002014-06-25T02:10:23.820-04:00We don't have very good accounting tools, espe...We don't have very good accounting tools, especially not even payroll tools. Sure, people can do things out of game, but without efficient ingame tools, the number of players willing to spend copious amounts of time with balky, slow mechanics in order to play space-accountant will always be a very small one.<br /><br />We can't even use shares effectively, because mechanics for forced liquidation, splitting, and share classing are not particularly functional.<br /><br />lowradsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-60294186649521359432014-06-25T01:40:10.172-04:002014-06-25T01:40:10.172-04:00Yes, but Jr accountant does not allow them to see ...Yes, but Jr accountant does not allow them to see the transaction log, they can Se the balance but are left to imagine how it was spent.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-57264802301558109142014-06-24T21:19:55.478-04:002014-06-24T21:19:55.478-04:00The one thing you forget about is that unlike miss...The one thing you forget about is that unlike mission runners, market activities are already taxed, which means having a corp tax on market income means that those players will be paying corp tax + NPC tax whereas the mission runners only pay corp tax.Heretic Caldarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03015635188565858672noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-238324579504790.post-23126076338296734312014-06-24T20:05:28.373-04:002014-06-24T20:05:28.373-04:00Would a corp act differently if it were called a v...Would a corp act differently if it were called a village and the CEO a mayor? What if it were a squadron and the boss were a commanding officer? Words are powerful and establish expectations on the nature of the relationship between the membership, staff and leadership. It would be nice to have some choices in how we label the organization. Caravan, village, syndicate, cartel, corporation, squadron, fleet, commune, collective, coop, navy, freeport, club, charity, school or armada. <br /><br />Am I a mayor, warlord, admiral, expedition leader, entertainer, tour guide, schoolmaster, warden or captain of industry?<br /> <br />A rose by another name might not seem to smell the same.<br /><br />- KynricAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com